GAUGING INTEREST - Billet 1100 blocks

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:44 pm

I'm in discussions with a company to design and manufacture billet blocks. The primary goal here is to target the demographic of people looking to upgrade their 900F to 1123cc. The 1100F blocks are becoming harder to find (especially on an International scale), and so this would be an elegant solution. We would be looking to offer these as a kit equipped with Wiseco pistons, bores already honed to size, and would also be including Vince and Hyde Racing's rear AHM tensioner, front curved guide, and Morse race chains as part of the package. Cost will obviously be a driving factor, and so we are working out those details. The design will incorporate some modifications to address some of the weaknesses associated with the OEM blocks.

The main objective of this message is however, is there a big enough interest in this? If there is no market value, then it might not make business sense to do this.

We are not focusing on the vintage road racing market, as most rules don't allow for aftermarket blocks. That is why we are also focusing on the readily available 1123 kit, for street applications. If a customer wanted to step up to 1187, then that is a possible upgrade option.

Thoughts?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:34 pm

Very interested, count me in. Thank you for looking into this.

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:17 pm

curious.

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:30 pm

I will be looking at a rebuild of a 900 in the later half of the year. I would be very interested, though, as usual, freight is always a killer to Australia...

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:07 am

What co-commitments would be required to fit this type of block to a 900, ie is case machining required, different conrods
head mods? gaskets etc
interested of course!

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:36 am

Building a reproduction block should be acceptable in all vintage road race clubs, the repro would need to be a match original from the exterior, internal modifications are acceptable.

What is the target number to get this moving forward?

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:25 am

I would be in......unless I have to pawn a kid to afford it!
Been wanting to build an engine of the bike while still riding......I'm a slow worker!

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:40 am

I'm interested, I actually bought a cb1000c engine last fall in the hopes of rebuilding my 900f engine with some of captains parts, which I'm getting close to being able to do. If the cylinder blocks were just castings of an already existing big block, would that be a more cost friendly approach?

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:36 pm

tough one - I have two 1100 blocks so I'm covered - yet I know if I need to find another one - especially in the UK it will be a hard find
think what i'm saying is i'd love to know that this product is back on the shelf - but i'm not in a present position to help get it there

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:48 pm

jkotsi wrote:

Building a reproduction block should be acceptable in all vintage road race clubs, the repro would need to be a match original from the exterior, internal modifications are acceptable.

What is the target number to get this moving forward?

Jim, can you verify this with some folks at the VRRA, in that if we keep it dimensionally the same from the outisde, that even thought it's billet, that it would be acceptable? Can I at least add my company logo to it?!?!? Laughing

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:14 pm

Are you considering a cylinder with liners like the stock ones?

Is a cylinder possible with no liners and something like Nikasil coatings (bigger bores possible) and custom pistons?

Or maybe a cylinder that could be configured either way?

I have no idea regarding feasibility , just throwing the question out there....

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:23 pm

petrat wrote:

jkotsi wrote:

Building a reproduction block should be acceptable in all vintage road race clubs, the repro would need to be a match original from the exterior, internal modifications are acceptable.

What is the target number to get this moving forward?

Jim, can you verify this with some folks at the VRRA, in that if we keep it dimensionally the same from the outisde, that even thought it's billet, that it would be acceptable? Can I at least add my company logo to it?!?!? Laughing

If the cylinder block is visually indistinguishable from a stock Honda part there won't be any issue with the VRRA accepting the new part, adding a logo won't change that.

Modifying the internals would be without restrictions, for example, solid aluminium cylinders and coatings, thicker case for greater rigidly, cutting windows in cylinder sleeves, even magnesium.

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:26 am

" Down Under" Pre 82 rules state that the material must be the same, so magnesium is out.
Internally anything goes so Nicasil on aluminium is acceptable.
The external appearance must be the same as OEM so any Co branding would need to be positioned in such a manner that it could be removed.
Solid aluminium including projections below the case mounting surface would allow both options, Nicasil for extra big bore or machine out and fit iron liners for the conventional set up and sizes.

Captain

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:22 am

Billet pistons are available in any shape you can think of from Diamond. Including but not limited to:

Asymmetrical and/or shorter skirts
Dome shape
Skinny rings (0.6mm thick)
Special coatings
Special wrist pins
etcetera

More qty = cheaper

If you want to get away from 30 year old Wiseco technology, I can handle this for you. They're just around the corner from me.
BTW, this is the same company that makes the pistons for many top fuel and land speed record teams including the Speed Demon.

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:33 pm

CBX-tras wrote:

Billet pistons are available in any shape you can think of from Diamond. Including but not limited to:

Asymmetrical and/or shorter skirts
Dome shape
Skinny rings (0.6mm thick)
Special coatings
Special wrist pins
etcetera

More qty = cheaper

If you want to get away from 30 year old Wiseco technology, I can handle this for you. They're just around the corner from me.
BTW, this is the same company that makes the pistons for many top fuel and land speed record teams including the Speed Demon.

Looking at two version, one for street with standard liners already bored to 1123 and another for race applications with Nikasil or other coatings. I'm familiar with Diamond, and this could be something that could be discussed with them provided that the costs for a piston set is comparable to my Wiseco dealer cost. As you alluded to quantity is what keeps costs down, but I believe this will be a niche item with not much quantity and so the premium invested for Diamond pistons might not make business sense. I know that Diamond already makes pistons for Brent and would have a template to start with, of course without any of the design features that are specific to Brent's super head.

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:47 pm

I'm waiting for the billet, totally redesigned cylinder head to come out on this forum. Granted Captain had made the ultimate but without have to work within the constraints of the OE I bet it could be even better!! Keep doing what you're doing Darren! Always good to see you push it even further along!

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:09 pm

Hello Petrat,

Did you get enough interest to pursue this project? Would be interested in hearing about any progress.

Cheers,

Chris

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:07 pm

Bone wrote:

Hello Petrat,

Did you get enough interest to pursue this project? Would be interested in hearing about any progress.

Cheers,

Chris

Nope. But it's not dead yet. As it was expected pricing was high enough that it would not be feasible for the common street bike owner. BUT, am still looking at making these to meet rules racing which means exact replication of the external geometry. This is what drives up the cost but might be a high enough demand for those that are already spending big dollars on their engines. It's a niche market, but hey, that is the market I am in and focusing on ....

Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:50 pm

Petrat,

I just stumbled across this post. As you found out, a billet block is a spendy process. I went down that path quite a few years ago, in search of a big block for drag racing. Even then, nothing new was available. What I did procure, at the time, were some magnesium blocks, that had been cast for MTC, but never machined. I was never able to determine for sure if any of these were ever finished and sold by MTC. So, I had a fixture made from a stock block to complete the machining, save for the final sleeve bore (left that for final sleeve fitting). I did three blocks, but never used them. One was sold to Raceworks Canada, in Dorchester, Ontario, for a customer. I never heard if the project was finished. Anyway, I still have the fixture if it would assist your billet block project, or were you strictly CNC?

Mr. Mike