Question for Potential Alternator Conversion Buyers

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:27 pm

Some of you know that I'm currently in the R&D phases of manufacturing and selling permanent magnet alternators for our DOHC 4's.

I'm now trying to nail down sources for the quality components while keeping costs down and here's my problem: Do I source a name brand MOSFET regulator for about $100 or a no name knock-off copy for half the price? Both work today but, I haven't run them long enough to make a long-term validation.

Thoughts?

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:44 pm

Does either part offer a warranty?

For me, I'd prefer a quality component, but not really interested in giving money away for the same quality of construction. Based on your description, I'd expect the name brand company to stand behind it's components more so than the no-name, but that's not always true.

Looking forward to seeing the results of your handiwork, sir.

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:24 pm

For those that didn't see what I'm working on, here's a photo of one of the first-offs:

For production, I'm having the modified (machined open) original cover, powder coated satin black (similar to the left/timing side) and have the machined plate for the stator done in ceramic silver.
The bump in the center of the plate isn't necessary so, that feature will be eliminated to be flat.

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:37 pm

Have had really good luck with the Shindengen mosfet ones and would stay with those given the option. Your pricing for the R/R sounds pretty great actually. Look forward to these becoming available.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:22 am

Either include a known quality part, or offer both and let the buyer choose. Better business imo.

Hawk Joined: Jan 10, 2012 Posts: 439 Location: Chicago

I'm interested....

E

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:14 am

Would it be possible to make it look like original cover? No need to be exact, it would be enough to have main things for example those horizontal lines in 1100f cover.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:23 pm

metu71 wrote:

Would it be possible to make it look like original cover? No need to be exact, it would be enough to have main things for example those horizontal lines in 1100f cover.

I'm considering a ball-nose design or logo into the cover but, anything extra adds cost. Let's make them functional first then look at the cosmetics.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:08 pm

CBX-tras wrote:

metu71 wrote:

Would it be possible to make it look like original cover? No need to be exact, it would be enough to have main things for example those horizontal lines in 1100f cover.

I'm considering a ball-nose design or logo into the cover but, anything extra adds cost. Let's make them functional first then look at the cosmetics.

Totally agree.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:17 pm

There are a lot of manufacturers in the semiconductor industry these days and it's quite possible that the company making the copy of the name brand MOSFET is every bit as legitimate. Unless there are specific features unique to the original (that are patented) then it's quite common for competitors to copy each other, make subtle improvements, and try to get a piece of the business. Many customers buying these components prefer to see second and third sources for the parts as well.

A couple questions - are either version automotive rated? The operating temp range is the key spec and in our case, heat is our concern. Are the data sheets for each version identical?

If you want to direct me to the data sheets for both versions, I can do a good comparison and see if there are any discernible differences. Also, the "knock-off" company may be a lot bigger than you think. I've been working in this industry for over 35 years, so it's quite possible that I'll be familiar with them.

Most of these devices will last a long, long time, provided that they aren't subjected to high voltage spikes or ESD in excess of their ratings. There's usually protection built in to help prevent damage from these events, provided that the event isn't huge.

Tom

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:05 pm

I am interested too. Please keep me in mind when they are ready to be sold.

Dave

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:50 pm

CBX-tras wrote:

metu71 wrote:

Would it be possible to make it look like original cover? No need to be exact, it would be enough to have main things for example those horizontal lines in 1100f cover.

I'm considering a ball-nose design or logo into the cover but, anything extra adds cost. Let's make them functional first then look at the cosmetics.

I like the design of what you have now! Include me for at least 2, as soon as you're satisfied with the unit.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:46 pm

For voltage regulation, are you thinking: disconnected circuit legs or shunted legs? I think that the disconnect type is preferable due to reduced winding currents/temperatures but probably more complicated.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:57 pm

Will the new unit have higher output so heated gear can be used?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:47 pm

swede0030 wrote:

Will the new unit have higher output so heated gear can be used?

+1. This would make the difference between buying one and not.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:50 pm

Bucko wrote:

For voltage regulation, are you thinking: disconnected circuit legs or shunted legs? I think that the disconnect type is preferable due to reduced winding currents/temperatures but probably more complicated.

I'm looking at MOSFET style rectifier/regulator that dump unused power to the negative side of the battery. These are used on many new bikes including, Yamaha, Triumph, Polaris, Suzuki, etc.
Specifically, I'm researching Shindengen brand components since they're OEM specified for many of the manufacturers I mentioned, including Honda. But, I'm not decided on any particular unit or manufacturer at this point.

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:28 am

swede0030 wrote:

Will the new unit have higher output so heated gear can be used?

Jim,
The components I'm sourcing are used on the 2000 to 2003 GSXR 600. I don't have a spec on output but, that bike is fuel injected so, it provides enough power for an ECU and more importantly a high pressure fuel pump along with all the lights too. The main fuse on those bikes is a 30 Amp, just like the stock F bikes.
Keep in mind too, that if we find an alternator that's makes a LOT of power, the stock Honda harness won't be able to handle it and we'd have to up-gauge all of that as well.
Additionally, this alternator uses a permanent magnet rotor. This means that the rotor no longer requires power from the bike to produce a magnetic field circuit.

My tests show that this set-up makes 13.9 to 14vdc just off idle, which to me is fantastic.

If it's any consolation, the stator I've sourced is claimed to have 15% more output than the stock GSXR. My test mule is running GREAT with it

The main benefits are: 1. The rotor on the crankshaft no longer has ANY wiring in it or going to it. To me that's about 99% reliability.
2. There are no more brushes to fail.
3. Better a/c to d/c rectification and regulation.

I'll continue my work on this until I have everything scienced out and the kit will be a reliable thing of beauty.

Lastly, send me an email and give me the load specs on your clothing. I'll simulate it and see how things go.

CB1100F Joined: Feb 17, 2009 Posts: 2105 Location: Oz

Interesting discussion on the watts (ha!), whys and where fors of PMAs and regulators.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:57 am

So more power, more reliability , more clearance for less vulnerability to tip over damage?

Sounds like a winner to me....Wouldn't there also be a small performance gain and increased revability from getting rid of all that rotating weight off the crank (rotor)?

I'd vote for a natural aluminum finish option over powdercoat. I think the prototype looks just right...

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:50 pm

Good work JR. I'll support anything that helps improve the reliability of these bikes. As it is, it takes a long time for me to get a new stator for my customers builds .... and I always put a new one on. If you can keep the price competitive and improve the reliability and output at low idle, I'll be buying them from you. I'll also send you a PM.

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:02 pm

I would rather have quality over a cheap price tag. Very interested.

Matt

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:03 pm

f4fast wrote:

So more power, more reliability , more clearance for less vulnerability to tip over damage?

Sounds like a winner to me....Wouldn't there also be a small performance gain and increased revability from getting rid of all that rotating weight off the crank (rotor)?

I'd vote for a natural aluminum finish option over powdercoat. I think the prototype looks just right...

The stock rotor I weighed came in at 1464 grams, the GSXR rotor is 751, saving 713 grams of rotating mass.

Full disclosure: We noticed a little more handlebar buzz with the new unit and I'm fabricating an arbor so they can be checked professionally for dynamic balance. Just another small piece of the puzzle to bring a quality kit to the CBF community. Some people would just let it go as-is but, I won't.

I appreciate the feedback.

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:35 pm

J.R., I know zero about electrical but as I said before, I will need to set up my motor with stock or something that will work. Always looking for improvements so I am on board with your final product. For me, I am willing to spend what it takes and not looking for the cheap way out. If that means an upgraded wiring harness I am willing to go for that as well. Thanks for working on this and going the extra mile for smooth operation!

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:11 pm

CBX-tras wrote:

The stock rotor I weighed came in at 1464 grams, the GSXR rotor is 751, saving 713 grams of rotating mass.

The actual total flywheel mass is less relevant than the radius about which the mass is acting. Although in this case it's kind of hard to make the rotor larger whereby a lighter mass could give the same inertia. All that said the R's run a lighter flywheel which allows quicker changes in revs. So quick apparently that Honda fitted an electronic taco as the regular unit couldn't keep up with the rate of change. Lighter flywheel also makes for a more lumpy idle and you need higher revs to pull away or risk stalling.

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:35 pm

http://www.roadstercycle.com/Shindengen%20Mosfet%20Regulator%20about.htm

This Rec/reg seems to get the tick from the VFR boys and the VFR is a shocker for chewing up the charging system. The connector between the stator and rec/reg fails and takes out the stator and rec/reg and some have caught fire. Corrosion in the connector causes resistance, gets hot, melts the connector and the stator wires touch each other and it is all bad from there. Once the connector is removed and the wires soldered and heat shrunk problem goes away

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:20 am

Nice work! Good project too.

The 1/4" quick disconnect connectors that are universally used on these bikes were barely adequate for the stator to rectifier wires when the bikes and connectors were new, tight, and stock. They have a real tendency to loosen up and eventually fail in higher current circuits like the stator wires.

Bullet type connectors are better, or there are numerous newer and higher tech connector types that would be better, but of course it presents another engineering/marketing problem to have easy compatibility and the cost consideration. The wire gauge might also need considering for the stator to rectifier connections too, of course.

If you do end up with a higher capacity system, the output (red wire) feed from the pma regulator to the battery/starter solenoid should probably have it's capacity increased and connectors improved as well, IMO. This could actually be done outside of the wiring harness and perhaps provide or recommend a dress kit or procedure of some kind.

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:07 am

CBX-tras wrote:

I'm looking at MOSFET style rectifier/regulator that dump unused power to the negative side of the battery.

Is that how it's normally done? I was under the impression the 'legs' are shorted together (as opposed to them being individually shorted to ground) as the voltage between two adjacent phases would be less (but fixed) than the maximum voltage of one phase to ground.

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:34 am

That's kind of over-simplifying it. The stator poles get shunted so they're effectively shorted. Putting them all together then grounding them, or doing them one at a time is the same thing. But it's done through electronic devices.

Here's another way to look at PMA regulation as I understand it.

Apparently it doesn't really dump all unused power to ground as if it was still producing it's maximum power, because a shunted stator prevents the current from flowing in the first place and so affects the magnetic interface, so only the hysteresis currents are what are left to dump, is my crude understanding. So a 300 watt alternator might have 50 watts of current dumping when it's fully shunted, which still makes considerable heat, but not anywhere near 300 watts worth. Also the drag on the motor is only the 50 watts, not the full capacity as if the system were optimally loaded for the 300 watts of power transfer from source to load.

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:20 pm

genesound wrote:

Nice work! Good project too.

The 1/4" quick disconnect connectors that are universally used on these bikes were barely adequate for the stator to rectifier wires when the bikes and connectors were new, tight, and stock. They have a real tendency to loosen up and eventually fail in higher current circuits like the stator wires.

Bullet type connectors are better, or there are numerous newer and higher tech connector types that would be better, but of course it presents another engineering/marketing problem to have easy compatibility and the cost consideration. The wire gauge might also need considering for the stator to rectifier connections too, of course.

If you do end up with a higher capacity system, the output (red wire) feed from the pma regulator to the battery/starter solenoid should probably have it's capacity increased and connectors improved as well, IMO. This could actually be done outside of the wiring harness and perhaps provide or recommend a dress kit or procedure of some kind.

The epoxy filled stator I've chosen comes with 36", 14ga leads that can be directly connected to the R/R. I'm planning on connecting the output wires directly to the battery with an in-line fuse in the positive feed.

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:00 pm

CBX-tras wrote:

The epoxy filled stator I've chosen comes with 36", 14ga leads that can be directly connected to the R/R. I'm planning on connecting the output wires directly to the battery with an in-line fuse in the positive feed.

Nice