Building a race bike.

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:42 am

72mm? Wasn't it going to be 69.5-70mm?

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:07 am

72mm bore could work with a 57mm stroke, don't know about boring/re-sleeving the AHM cylinders

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:45 am

Can you de-stroke it that much? Wow this motor is gonna revvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv! Captains head, 57 mm stroke, 72 mm bore, dam it's gonna breathe! How big can you make the exhaust tubes? This is cool stuff!

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:59 am

Nothing's in stone. The 72mm pistons would be a trade deal for some rearsets so the price would help.
If 3.5mm is as far as APE thinks is do able for De-stroking then the 72mm pistons won't work.

I believe that Brent's head s designed to work best with a 72mm bore so if I can do that and all the kings men say it will work and not explode??
Then I will try it.
I'm relying heavily on everybody's knowledge and my ability to put it together properly, for this to work.

Obviously I can't go for maximum HP due to the cc limit and 29mm carbs so that's not the challenge for me.
Making it stay together is.

I plan to order the Ignitech ignition this week and start making the limited wiring harness.

I asked Dennis if he had ever Dyno'd his bikes and he said No but believed that he was in the 110 to 115 range.
What do you motor gurus think a short stroke with everything done to it can do?

I love my job!! Very Happy

MB-5 Joined: May 05, 2014 Posts: 18 Location: Anahiem, CA.

If it were me, I wouldn't buy or trade for a piston until I had Captains head in my hands, if indeed thats the plan. Sort the bottom end out first (bore/stroke), Use the 1100 type rods for strength and rod angle. Small engine, big carbs...BIG RPM. BIG. Once thats done, you make a plaster mold of the combustion chamber, figure out what your compression height needs to be and call JE. They'll fill in your blanks. You'll need to think about stuff like cam lift for the valve pockets because you wanna squeeze the AF mixture to fuckin death if possible, with a piston thats as flat as possible. 13+:1 Think cans of VP C12....

If you tell JE you want a slipper type piston, they'll send you something that resembles a ring holder. It wont even look like a piston. Gives me goose bumps just thinking about taking them out of the box...yum...

You'll need to mock the bottom end up at least 3 times.

You should also start thinking about a real ignition too, not a friggin Dyna. Building a giant killer aint cheap...but damn its fun.

Know how to make a million dollars? Take 3 million and go racing.

MB-5 Joined: May 05, 2014 Posts: 18 Location: Anahiem, CA.

If it were me, I wouldn't buy or trade for a piston until I had Captains head in my hands, if indeed thats the plan. Sort the bottom end out first (bore/stroke), Use the 1100 type rods for strength and rod angle. Small engine, big carbs...BIG RPM. BIG. Once thats done, you make a plaster mold of the combustion chamber, figure out what your compression height needs to be and call JE. They'll fill in your blanks. You'll need to think about stuff like cam lift for the valve pockets because you wanna squeeze the AF mixture to fuckin death if possible, with a piston thats as flat as possible. 13+:1 Think cans of VP C12....

If you tell JE you want a slipper type piston, they'll send you something that resembles a ring holder. It wont even look like a piston. Gives me goose bumps just thinking about taking them out of the box...yum...

You'll need to mock the bottom end up at least 3 times.

You should also start thinking about a real ignition too, not a friggin Dyna. Building a giant killer aint cheap...but damn its fun.

Know how to make a million dollars? Take 3 million and go racing.

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:58 am

Seamus wrote:

If it were me, I wouldn't buy or trade for a piston until I had Captains head in my hands, if indeed thats the plan. Sort the bottom end out first (bore/stroke), Use the 1100 type rods for strength and rod angle. Small engine, big carbs...BIG RPM. BIG. Once thats done, you make a plaster mold of the combustion chamber, figure out what your compression height needs to be and call JE. They'll fill in your blanks. You'll need to think about stuff like cam lift for the valve pockets because you wanna squeeze the AF mixture to fuckin death if possible, with a piston thats as flat as possible. 13+:1 Think cans of VP C12....

If you tell JE you want a slipper type piston, they'll send you something that resembles a ring holder. It wont even look like a piston. Gives me goose bumps just thinking about taking them out of the box...yum...

You'll need to mock the bottom end up at least 3 times.

You should also start thinking about a real ignition too, not a friggin Dyna. Building a giant killer aint cheap...but damn its fun.

Know how to make a million dollars? Take 3 million and go racing.

This exactly how I do my own stuff, but I didn't use JE. However it is very good advise because it allows you to take maximum advantage of the combustion chamber and so have the dome as low as possible. As for the RPM, I think you need to build for around the 12000 RPM range and this means you need to pay close attention to the valve train weights and sizes. The following pictures are the single valve spring and Titanium retainer (under bucket shim) that I am running. The larger version is the OEM Honda equivalent (shim on top retainer).
Unrelated but maybe of interest are aluminium cam blanks that are designed to duplicate the cam base circle and so be able to set shim clearances much easier and also keep everything in place when inverting and working on the head............Just a great tool that helps when building or setting up a new head or anything else for that matter.

Captain

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:39 am

Brilliant!
it's a pair of camshafts without the nuisance of the lobes. Very nice and quick when it comes to shimming on the bench ...

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:44 am

Ivan,
I'm bringing them with me next week so you can have a play with them yourself.
looking forward to seeing you and your brothers again, how's the weather there now?

Captain

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:30 pm

Brent,
JJam here looks very serious about the short stroke engine ... great topic!

You and Brian are welcome, and everything is ready.
I'll be in England next week. Back home on Friday, well before you arrive.

PS
The weather? 27°C , clear blue sky and sunny, perfect!
Don't forget your bathing suit.
I just rode (my bicycle) back from the beach

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:37 pm

JJam wrote:

1100russ wrote:

Jim, if at all possible, can you document (with pics) the moving of the steering stem? I might be looking into this for my track bike project. If not I understand. Sounds like like you got about 14 irons in the fire at the same time! Wink

You got that right. Its pretty crazy here at my shop and it really doesn't help when my mill is down while I wait for parts for the 2nd time this month. I have lost 2 and half weeks due to it. Twisted Evil

I do plan to document this whole build and will start showing pictures of the frame in about a week?

Jebby got any names of places that you know do cranks?

Peace, Jim

F-crazy posted Mile High cranks.....I have used them...try them first for a quote...
I have a guy in Maine named Adney Brown.....he is a crank wiz...
Have not spoken to him in a few years....may want to Google him up....

Jebby

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:04 pm

Great advise guys. Thank You!!!

I have decided to not skimp in any area. Going to look at KibbleWhite under the bucket shim set up. But if I can get away with some other brand of buckets that will work for me?? At 12000rpm I'm not willing to trust the stock set up. I will have these Swiss cheesed to be as light as possible.

Ivan, I have really no other choice then to go this route due to the rules of the class.
I suppose that I could build a stock CB900 and put Brents head on it but what fun would that be? It wouldn't have the big piston that works best with the new head.

I'll wait on the piston design and size until I have both the head and RSC barrels from Brent.
In the mean time should I wait on ordering the rod's? Or will I need to get them before the crank goes off to get worked on?

Keep giving me ideas guys and tell me straight out if you see me F'n up with any of the final decisions.

Peace, Jim

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:11 pm

DennisTheMenace wrote:

pn27416 wrote:

Good luck to you both and have fun!
If If i'm corrcet on this, AHRMA has no class for 1100's but I see bikes 10 years newer in there races?

AHRMA runs modern bikes EXCEPT fours - there are lots of clubs that do that so AHRMA goes after the others. AHRMA also just added a "Next Gen Superbike" class for the vintage 750cc superbikes that started in '83 after the 1025cc class was phased out.

There's no 1100s allowed - 1025cc is the Vintage Superbike limit.

Thanks Dennis!

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:13 pm

OK called Mile High and Dave didn't have grinding wheels narrow enough.

Looks like Falicon or APE are the choices and they both want the same amount to do the de-stroke. $1100.00 plus shipping.
Which company would you choose????

I will have the 750 crank that I have donated by Melchiro magna fluxed to be sure its a good one before I do anything with it.

Would it be best for me to do my lightning and balance before its gets sent to have the work done?
Also I may be able to save a little money if I pull the oil galley plugs and tap them before it goes to which ever I choose as they would be doing it if I didn't.

For a piston company I think I will try Diamond because Jebbysan has said good things about them and I believe that another person on here has his custom pistons done there.

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:33 pm

Jim,
Try Tom at Precision Crank in Boise Idaho (208)321-8134

My understanding is that he was a machinist for Fast Freddie back in the day. I believe he is the guy that did Stoutblocks crank. He will do mine if I every get to that point.

I spoke with the guy and he was very much aware of lightening these cranks and also asked all kinds of question with regard to riding style and intentions as well as rider size with regard to how much to lighten.

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:12 pm

Jim,
You can tick this part off now..............I am donating the RSC barrels to you for this project and will even pick up the freight cost. My way of joining in the fun.
I have your address so I will collect it from the workshop tonight and it will pack it and ship it out tomorrow.

Captain

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:05 pm

Captain wrote:

Jim,
You can tick this part off now..............I am donating the RSC barrels to you for this project and will even pick up the freight cost. My way of joining in the fun.
I have your address so it will collect it from the workshop tonight and it will pack it and ship it out tomorrow.

Captain

Jebby

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:31 am

Thank You very much Brent!! Cool

Will return the favor for sure!!

Well while I'm still waiting for new spindle bearings for my mil. I decided it was time to remodel the shop and pick up the material for the frame jig.
Since I got the CNC mill my shop has been terrible to move around in plus getting another parts mill tomorrow. Will combine the two old Bridgeports and make an ugly but functional mill out of them.

Heres the start of the frame jig.

Planning on making a solid wood bench and bolting the steel to it. Then get some caster's to be able to move it for storage.

That's all I got for now.

Peace, Jim

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:04 am

Diamond does quality work. They are pricey though. One problem is they may not be able to make pistons for that small of a bore size. I'm not sure. Lots of people recommend JE. They're ok. Sometimes I'm not that impressed by the consistency of their skirt sizing. I also like CP.

Nich

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:33 am

djhurayt wrote:

Jim,
Try Tom at Precision Crank in Boise Idaho (208)321-8134

My understanding is that he was a machinist for Fast Freddie back in the day. I believe he is the guy that did Stoutblocks crank. He will do mine if I every get to that point.

I spoke with the guy and he was very much aware of lightening these cranks and also asked all kinds of question with regard to riding style and intentions as well as rider size with regard to how much to lighten.

Thank's DJ,

I called Tom and he called back but I was out of the shop today. I'll check back tomorrow.

Thank you for the input Nich. I have had good luck with CP pistons in some of the MX motors that I have done. I'm hoping for under $700.00 for some custom pistons?
We'll see when I get to that decision?

MB-5 Joined: May 05, 2014 Posts: 18 Location: Anahiem, CA.

Well, deciding the bore size is barrel dependent. You want the largest diameter piston you can get for intake flow. Then adjust the crank length to push the CC to the class limit. If you're going all out...thats the plan.

The rod ratio for 12,000 reliable HP with a decent power band should be about 1.7 to 1.8:1. So if you're getting custom rods made, you need to make the decision on the stroke first, then the rod, then the compression height follows.

A shorter rod is going to make power lower in the RPM range. So what you dont want is a short rod. big low end torque, bottom end tied to a top end that wants to sing with the angels.

On the dirt bike side, Honda has been shortening the rod on the 450 to make it grunt as an example. I really eny you on this project. This kind of stuff is where the joy is born.

IMHO, JE, CP are interchangeable. Cant make a mistake. Both are excellent pieces. Ive just got more experience with the JE stuff.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:11 pm

F-crazy wrote:

Diamond does quality work. They are pricey though. One problem is they may not be able to make pistons for that small of a bore size. I'm not sure. Lots of people recommend JE. They're ok. Sometimes I'm not that impressed by the consistency of their skirt sizing. I also like CP.

Nich

Diamond will do them...J.R. from the CBX world site has them done there...Pure Michigan...like me Very Happy

Diamond will do a piston from your clay chamber mold.....or plastic resin.....give them the specs and send them the impression of the chamber.....

Jebby

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:13 pm

JJam wrote:

djhurayt wrote:

Jim,
Try Tom at Precision Crank in Boise Idaho (208)321-8134

My understanding is that he was a machinist for Fast Freddie back in the day. I believe he is the guy that did Stoutblocks crank. He will do mine if I every get to that point.

I spoke with the guy and he was very much aware of lightening these cranks and also asked all kinds of question with regard to riding style and intentions as well as rider size with regard to how much to lighten.

Thank's DJ,

I called Tom and he called back but I was out of the shop today. I'll check back tomorrow.

Thank you for the input Nich. I have had good luck with CP pistons in some of the MX motors that I have done. I'm hoping for under $700.00 for some custom pistons?
We'll see when I get to that decision?

Ed who was at JE for 25 years...is now with CP......he is the shit when it comes to ordering custom pistons....

Tell him Jeffrey from Lukovich/Gianino sent you Very Happy

Jebby

MB-5 Joined: May 05, 2014 Posts: 18 Location: Anahiem, CA.

F-crazy wrote:

Diamond does quality work. They are pricey though. One problem is they may not be able to make pistons for that small of a bore size. I'm not sure. Lots of people recommend JE. They're ok. Sometimes I'm not that impressed by the consistency of their skirt sizing. I also like CP.

Nich

I'm curious about this because it hasn't been my experience at all. What were the issues you found. PM me if you like. (Airing dirty laundry and all that)

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:04 am

Today I got ahold of Tom at Precision Crank and we talked for quite awhile.

He's a bit more expensive but I was very comfortable with him and his experience with these cranks. He's done AHM cranks, Kawasaki and Suzuki cranks for the victory race bikes at various times. He's also a one man shop and will be the one doing the work. This makes me very confident. He's my guy for this project.

He said that he's about 10 weeks out for this job so as soon as I see the cylinders I'll figure out the stroke and ship them off. In the mean time I need to pull out the galley plugs, tap the holes and do my lightening.

Since I'm having new rods and pistons made.
Would this motor benefit with 18mm wrist pins? Or just some 17mm such as APE has?
I don't want to add weight but really need everything to work together and not fly apart. I can't afford that.

Jim

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:48 am

I would talk to the piston manufacturer or Brent about wrist pin size. A bigger diameter will be stronger which is generally a good thing. It doesn't necessarily have to be much heavier as the wall thickness can maybe stay the same. It all depends on what you need combined with what is available. Also something to consider is pin length. The shorter it is the lighter and stronger it is. Again you need to find out what is available.

Nich

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:01 am

In my opinion you won't need anything bigger than 17mm on the pin.
If you look on Diamonds website they have a resin kit you can order for cheap money to do a mold of you combustion chamber, you can then send that to anyone you choose. I also like Diamond. JE and Wiseco are owned by the same company now and I'm prettu sure that when you order JE pisons and you talk to someone in Ca the part is being made in OH along with the Wiseco stuff. Might be wrong on that but they are the same company now for all intents and purposes.

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:43 am

OK, Thank you Nich and Nathan!

All makes sense.

I have more home work to do.

Jim

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:07 am

In the pictures I sent in one of my emails look closely at the pin area, these are 17mm but are heavier wall but shorter than the Wiseco type. This is effective as I am running up to 12000 RPM and with 69 mm stroke. As mine are living then there is no problem doing the same in your combination.

I shipped the RSC/AHM barrels today and also included a 750 Curved Guide and AHM Tensioner for you to use in the build.

I haven't mentioned this before but I have access to the very best race grade (Regina) Morse primary chains and cam chains and all sorts of other hard to find service parts. Just ask as you will be surprised what I have for these engines.
Example..... Tube Dowels used under the cam caps and cases, premium grade seals, gaskets and so on and so on.

No "B" grade items allowed.....................

Captain

Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:56 pm

Wow, Thank You for mailing the parts and the sponsorship Brent!!
Vince & Hyde decals will be needed to run on the bike as the second sponsor. I need to email Randakks Cycle Shack and see what he can do to help this venture out?
I'm trying to see if I can get a little help from Race Tech for the suspension parts. I will do all of the re-valve and set up myself.

First semi big purchase was made just a few seconds ago on ebay.
I got some VERY NICE 88 GSXR1100 wheels with sprocket hub and disc's front and back. The discs won't get used as I have some 320mm floating ones that I plan tom use but the wheels can now be checked off the TO GET list.
4.5" at the back and the lightest wheels that I can afford.
Now with this rear wheel, I can run the under slung rear caliper which is better IMO.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-1988-Suzuki-GSXR-1100-Complete-Wheels-with-Bridgestone-Batlax-Tires-Rims-/191193812965?autorefresh=true&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=Vjnb6xImx2wItiWXYVwqWn8zDj0%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

No turning back at this point.

Brent, I was thinking that I would go for one of your Primary chain tensioners as well for this motor but not sure that it will work with the 750 set up?
Do you have any of these made up? I can afford to build it right the first time but not afford to build it after it scatters so I need this part.

I am SO LUCKY!!, Told Cristi (My wife) how much this bike is going to set me back and all she said was well I'm sure that it will pay off for you. Shocked

She's the best and backs me up. Full steam ahead on this bike!!

Have a great day.

Jim