Lightening the valve bucket

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:00 pm

Has anyone experimented with drilling holes in the valve bucket side, to reduce the weight?? I'm just curious...

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:55 pm

You could drill holes in the top of the bucket too (under the shim) .

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:09 pm

Difficult to drill though, but with under bucket shim AHM at one time did exactly this and I know of no failures or problems in operation.

I achieved the same thing (lighter) by going to a smaller diameter bucket.

Now start thinking how and why I did that...................

Captain

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:34 pm

Couldn't you also drill out the shims themselves?

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:08 pm

Captain wrote:

........I achieved the same thing (lighter) by going to a smaller diameter bucket.

Now start thinking how and why I did that...................

Captain

How? Obviously, you have to fill the big bore that the original bucket came in and re-drill the bore..Maybe install a sleeve to fit the smaller bucket? Possibly be able to use a set-up from a modern bike. Say a Yamaha R6. Make all of the stuff out of Titanium.. Like the modern R6, this LIGHTER valvetrain can rev up to the moon!

But Captain, I, like most here, have a 40hr work week job and a limited budget.... Crying or Very sad

Thank you for the reply. Makes me really want to see the inside of your engine..

I will try this bucket drilling, when I build the cruzinimage piston, 1123 motor, in the near future..

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:38 pm

I do have a head that is modified to the extreme including 4.5mm stem custom valves, all Titanium components, and you could say it is more like the modern architecture than the OEM set-up I started with. The trick was how I did it.

Soon, I will post some pictures of it as it is a game changer (I've said this previously) and allow power levels that haven't been possible before !!!!!
But again, here is something to ponder............... The air flow of this head is starting at 210 CFM and 165 CFM (@ 28") and to put that into perspective, an all out modified OEM head measured the same will do about 165 CFM on the Intake.
This is a massive improvement by anyone's standards, and now with straight ports and correct intake tumble the breakthrough has been made to allow these engines to make more power than the "other marques". Add that to the reliability mods I have developed and we are now in possession of the best of both worlds.

I too have a 40hr a week job, but a lot of flexibility and yes, a budget, but besides the financial we contribute ourselves we have help from sponsors. But it is experience and time added to the above that help us to achieve the things that move us forward.

Captain

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:26 pm

Bush the bucket bore then with a small diameter bucket you could redrill the new boreon an offset so you can modify valve angle. With 4.5mm valve stems you can do the same(or just bore on a different angle for the new guides). Valve seat is easy enough to change. Now its all lightweight and at an improved valve angle. You may not be able to change from 31 degrees to 7 but it would help.. Lots of work....

Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:46 am

CB1100F wrote:

Couldn't you also drill out the shims themselves?

Hey Glenn, I'm thinking that with the holes in the shim, the cam lobe might have an edge or something to grab onto and "tiddly-wink", spit the shim out...

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:53 am

Would it be possible to modify the standard buckets to become "under bucket" cam followers?

Remove the outer lip on top, polish and hard anodize the top, using the under bucket retainers and keepers that are available, or have new aluminium retainers made.

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:19 pm

"Would it be possible to modify the standard buckets to become "under bucket" cam followers?"

Sure, anything's possible. The newly machined and polished buckets would have to be heat treated
for increased hardness, or you could use a surface treatment like on crank journals (Deep Nitride),
or you could get them cryogenically treated to increase hardness. You would also have to counterbore the
inside of the buckets to accept the new smaller magnetic shims, which ride directly on the tip of the valve stem.

The up side: you can buy a big assortment of the small shims from "Hot Cams". About 150 shims for about $70 if I remember right.

The down side: You have to remove the cams to adjust the valves.

Possible? yes. Worthwhile? probably not.

Toonces

Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:29 pm

Thanks, I didn't think of boring the buckets for the shim, I thought the retainer would hold the shim in place.

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:58 am

jkotsi wrote:

Would it be possible to modify the standard buckets to become "under bucket" cam followers?

Remove the outer lip on top, polish and hard anodize the top, using the under bucket retainers and keepers that are available, or have new aluminium retainers made.

Kaz Yoshima did it.. Page four of this article, in our "TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS" section..
http://cb1100f.net/Other/CycleWorldNovember1979/CycleWorldNovember1979.pdf

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:49 pm

Thanks Mel, its been a long time since I read that article, lots of good info.

Looks like the KZ650 shim is a good choice, 6.5mm. Are there narrower shims with enough selection for thickness?

Twinstar Joined: Oct 27, 2013 Posts: 52 Location: germany

Hello,
for Shim under you could use Suzuki TL 1000 Retainer (aluminium) with GSX 1100 Valve Keepers and the extreme light but shorter TL 1000 Buckets or the MV Agusta F4 Buckets (same size as CB but shim under an much lighter).
TL 1000 Shim size is 9.48mm

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:00 pm

What would be the benefit exactly when even a good head only flows enough to make power to 10,000 rpm?

Jebby

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:22 pm

Jebbysan wrote:

What would be the benefit exactly when even a good head only flows enough to make power to 10,000 rpm?

Jebby

The benefits I see is

A) how quickly the engine revs to 10,000 RPMS, lighter rotations amss will rev quicker than a heaver assembly

AND ...

B) lighter rotational mass will (in theory depending on material used) stay together longer due to less stress.

What puts more strees and strain on an assembly? 1 pound spinning @ 10,000 RPM or 6 ounces spinning @ 10,000 RPM?

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:37 pm

cbxdog wrote:

Jebbysan wrote:

What would be the benefit exactly when even a good head only flows enough to make power to 10,000 rpm?

Jebby

The benefits I see is

A) how quickly the engine revs to 10,000 RPMS, lighter rotations amss will rev quicker than a heaver assembly

AND ...

B) lighter rotational mass will (in theory depending on material used) stay together longer due to less stress.

What puts more strees and strain on an assembly? 1 pound spinning @ 10,000 RPM or 6 ounces spinning @ 10,000 RPM?

But it really won't help it rev faster unless you lighten the rotating assembly to accommodate it.....it would just ease stress to the valve spring....as when the bucket reaches polar moment of inertia...it takes less energy to switch direction.....
That is really the only benefit I see.

Not trying to be a naysayer....just throwing that out there....
I wasn't aware that there were any issues with the stock setup...other than the shim over bucket on high lift cams....and potentially weak spring for the application.

Jebby

Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:07 pm

Firstly................ The heads will flow past 10,000 RPM.

I suspect that the reason for this assumption (Won't breath beyond 10,000 RPM) is that a particular long time member here, has said it so often that you now all believe it. I do not agree with this and from my experience they can be made to perform at RPM's above that. However it is true that there are limitations (as there are to all things) but never the less more power is the result of more RPM once you can maintain flow. Lighter buckets or anything else in this area (valve train) have numerous beneficial effects including quicker rev'ing, less stress and so on and so on..........................I could just about list a page of them, but if you think about it long enough you will realise that they logical and are all just common sense.

Captain

Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 4:51 pm

Captain wrote:

Firstly................ The heads will flow past 10,000 RPM.

I suspect that the reason for this assumption (Won't breath beyond 10,000 RPM) is that a particular long time member here, has said it so often that you now all believe it. I do not agree with this and from my experience they can be made to perform at RPM's above that. However it is true that there are limitations (as there are to all things) but never the less more power is the result of more RPM once you can maintain flow. Lighter buckets or anything else in this area (valve train) have numerous beneficial effects including quicker rev'ing, less stress and so on and so on..........................I could just about list a page of them, but if you think about it long enough you will realise that they logical and are all just common sense.

Captain

Yeah...I guess I am a bit "leathered in" Wink

Jebby

Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 8:26 pm

Since I am getting blamed for something,I used to shift at 12000,13800 for short stroke.

It does not go one bit quicker,just breaks bottom ends.Took FOREVER to learn this. You want to impress people rev the hell out of it. You want to go fast,short shift.

To check something use a different shim and SHIM UNDER. The smallest shim is 7.48 OD from a Suzuki,about the size of the valve stem.

Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 12:33 am

sonicrete wrote:

Since I am getting blamed for something,I used to shift at 12000,13800 for short stroke.

It does not go one bit quicker,just breaks bottom ends.Took FOREVER to learn this. You want to impress people rev the hell out of it. You want to go fast,short shift.

To check something use a different shim and SHIM UNDER. The smallest shim is 7.48 OD from a Suzuki,about the size of the valve stem.

No blame Bill......we know a stock head just doesn't flow.....it can be made to do that...but now I am splitting hairs....

Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 3:12 am

You need to understand these mortors. They run the exact same ET on the strip no matter what you shift at. New rider revs the hell out of it. It goes no faster. I said to short shift,start in 1st end in 5th and push the button as quick as you can,don't wait for it to rev up.

Now if you were road racing it might make a difference to hold rpm and not shift,but it goes no quicker.

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:40 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3ty0PKYnis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV_baz8VONg

Hey Bill, any video footage of your bike, I love watching these bikes frozen in time (even after death visits as in John Sands.)

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:07 pm

DrOlds wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3ty0PKYnis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV_baz8VONg

Hey Bill, any video footage of your bike, I love watching these bikes frozen in time (even after death visits as in John Sands.)

Lil Johnny Dragster..by Maxine Sands?

Link

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:48 pm

I don't know much about John Sands other than a couple things CB1220F pm'ed me. (He has a motor done by Sands that needs refreshing.) Sands apparently died of cancer several years back. I think Maxine recorded the song / video as a tribute to the guy.

SEE YOU AT THE RACES THIS IS WHAT I ENJOYED DOING , WORKING AS PIT CREW FOR MY EX HUSBAND JOHN SANDS

John Sands Worlds Fastest Honda John won just about every race that he entered for years. A few years after these pictures were taken He built the worlds fastest normally aspirated Honda. From there he went on to building some of the faster and better built Top Fuel Harley's in the world. He was one of the pioneers of Motorcycle Drag Racing .

http://maxinesandsband.com/123.html

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:26 pm

John's bike was the worlds fastest and quickest normally aspirated bike. No one on fuel made a 6 anything or a 200 anything,testing,broken engine anything.

Fuel does funny things and the needle bearing of the other brands crank prevented big loads of nitro.

You heard what it sounded like. Well it was louder in person. We were at Bowling Green one year and the kid with me almost dropped the camera when John did his burnout.

Not being front line you know what makes the noise,it is the percentage of Nitro.

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:17 pm

I had 2 uncles that drag raced (Paul Wightman ran an E/gas 62 Corvette and Patty ran an F/gas 55 Nomad) and I was standing near the starting line at Niagara Drag Strip (NY) when Garlits broke 250 mph. In the early 90's I was at his museum and he was tinkering with a flathead Lincoln V-10 lowboy and we struck up a conversation. Besides being a down to earth gear head he remembered the trip north and the fact that he totaled the car the next weekend match racing at Dunkirk NY when he went off the end of the track (not likely something he would have forgotten!)

I also was at Niagara for a Funny car show with Jungle Jim (the 72 Camaro), Shirley Muldowney, Brand X, The Hawaiian. I was standing near the exhaust pipes when Jim's car was started and got a full load of Nitro. I still remembering stumbling around trying to see for a couple minutes. The funny thing is I never even looked at Pam or realized that was the real show or at least a 50/50 trade off.

Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:51 pm

Quote:

I also was at Niagara for a Funny car show with Jungle Jim (the 72 Camaro), Shirley Muldowney, Brand X, The Hawaiian. I was standing near the exhaust pipes when Jim's car was started and got a full load of Nitro. I still remembering stumbling around trying to see for a couple minutes. The funny thing is I never even looked at Pam or realized that was the real show or at least a 50/50 trade off.

Great call Doc,, Jungle Pam was big time eye candy,,

And JIM would have gone on to be an even bigger drag race legend has he lived to a ripe old age

One of my early hero's ,, Jungle Jim Liberman rip