Sonicrete have you seen this?? Yet another oil thread

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/5-ZddPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Oil-Additive-Zinc-and-Phosphorus-/170469181578

Me thinks Im going to try it out next oil change..... Along with either Valvoline or Royal Purple...

Hawk Joined: Jun 11, 2007 Posts: 349 Location: NV

Amsoil's motorcycle oil already has a high zddp content if I'm not mistaken. They also have a high zinc auto oil I run in my Jeep.

aa

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

Cecil14 wrote:

Amsoil's motorcycle oil already has a high zddp content if I'm not mistaken. They also have a high zinc auto oil I run in my Jeep.

aa

Anthony, then post their ZDDP ratios..... IF you can find them... or have a rep come on here and do it Smile

Amsoil seems to spam every oil test review or opinion out there. But dont get me wrong, Amsoil is a fine product, just not them only choice out there. In tests I have seen they were well below Maxum, Motul and Mobil One, but from what Ive read from Bill, he HATES Mobil 1. Other tests have seen Royal Purple, Brand Penn and Valvoline beat even those numbers.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html

The Street Commodores test...http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

Some have said its BS, others have said put your oil up to the test... but nobody wanted to play.

Quote:

Having said that, the 'Street Commodore' test results may be indicating that Penrite, Valvoline and Royal Purple had continued to use ZDDP, when other brands had discontinued or minimised its use (bearing in mind that no defensible conclusions can be drawn on the basis of a single test run). The ACEA "A" specifications (for gasoline engines) limit phosphorus content to 0.1 per cent by mass. Until recently, only Penrite and Valvoline revealed the phosphorus content of its oils at all, and only Valvoline their zinc contents. (Valvoline has now dumbed down its online product information for markets outside the US, so you have to ring it to find out the specs for its locally-marketed products.) Back in 2006, for several of its oils, Penrite limited their phosphorus content to 0.095 per cent, almost certainly to enable it to claim compliance with ACEA gasoline engine ratings.

STRANGELY, in the past few months, some lubricant manufacturers have got ZDDP religion, and seem to be falling over themselves to promote their zinc and phosphorus contents, and even trumpet that particular lubricants do NOT meet API SM and ACEA standards.

I wonder whether this has been brought about by the outcry over unprecedented engine wear on numerous classic car web forums like Rennlist?

http://928.landsharkoz.com/Blogs/tabid/370/EntryID/9/Default.aspx

and then theres this. It seems this guy is using Amsoil to do the same thing as the Commodore test??

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm

Hawk Joined: Jun 11, 2007 Posts: 349 Location: NV

Oh I'm no advocate (or rep) for any one oil. Run the one you like. Smile

I run Amsoil in all my stuff, I've been very happy with it so far.

I know Bill runs Royal Purple in some of his stuff and swears by it.

aa

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:49 am

I can only say what I said what we found by our own tests.

Dennis Dean got sued by Mobil when it turned out that was crap. I told my kid's that story and they did not believe it. Kevin built a hot Honda turbo car,t3/t4,the works. Broke it in on Valvoline MC oil. The Valvoline auto oil is crap because the zinc is so low. Changed to Mobil-1 and melted the front side out of the pistons. My guess was friction/heat at the rings. Rebuilt it,broke it in with Valvoline,changed to Mobil and same failure. This is what sent him on the search that found the Street Commodores magazine test.

Every engine we have tried the Royal Purple in plain just runs "free". Lubed automatic pistols and triggers with a little and get a nice free motion there as well. Would not believe that oil could be that much difference as it is on my Harley. On their web site testimonials and bunches of other people say the same thing.

I am sure heat makes stuff worse,but I doubt is better cold,when that bearing makes a loud "skreech" when it hits the wheel on the Falex test.

Mobil sounds like crap. Seen Motul as well sounds like crap. They actually sound like there is no oil at all in the cup.

Now as to Amsoil and their test. It should be "close" to same results. No way RP is worse then the Mobil.

Everybody has discovered the same deal. The good green Kendall was great and a lot of people used it. The formula changed easily seen since not green anymore and people started failing engines. This is the reason for Bradd Penn the old Kendall formula.

There used to be a product called STP Newer Car Treatment. Was not the old thick STP but just zinc. This stuff worked. Then the government got in the game no longer sold. A bunch showed up in Bigg Lotts and I bought quite a bit of it. Still look to see if more shows up,but this was like 10 yrs ago.

Something is needed at sliding friction areas. To me is similar to the bearing against the wheel Falex test. Needed at cam/lifter or gears sliding which is common on a bike that does not affect the clutch. This is the "zinc". Now the Royal Purple Max Cycle does not affect the clutch.

So if the Mobil or others have a high zinc content something else is wrong with that product or you would not see such bearing wear by Falex test.

I tell you it is day and night. A crap oil sounds bad right from the get go and the bearing has massive wear,not to mention you can stall the machine. A "good" oil has little sound and you must really load it to get it to stall. Often you cannot stall it and the bearing has no wear. Seen this same deal using Bardahl back in the past.

MB-5 Joined: Oct 25, 2009 Posts: 20 Location: Bay Area

Whats the consensus on Honda oil?

I've always run them since my old 2-stroke scooter would run like crap on anything other than GN2.

I've been using GN4 10-40w with good results.

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:12 am

Since Honda is not an oil refiner,it is made by someone else. It could be under contract so one mfg one time then another another.

I had a friend work at a dealership. They sold a lot of bikes so did not want to do it a qt at a time and looked for a supplier that would do 55 gal drums. I keep thinking it was Yamalube that had the same code on the drum as Valvoline and could have been since Ashland Ohio is close.

At this point who knows.

Had a friend who bought a CB-1 Honda and rode it back and forth to Columbus daily to work. Bought it new and used Honda oil in it. So on one of his oil changes they talked him into the synthetic Honda oil. Next day the further he rode the hotter the bike got. Even stopped to make sure it had oil in it. Had to ride with his feet near the outside of the pegs. On the return trip same deal and rode right over to the dealer and had them change it out to install what he was using before.

In the case of my Harley,I changed oil the first time and used Harley oil. No shit the bottle smelled like Chlorox Bleach,burned your nose. Say 600 miles changed it to Valvoline MC oil and gained my stall speed in 6th from 65 mph to 60 mph. Then when changed it to Royal Purple in primary,trans and engine would go on down to 50 mph or less in 6th. Shifts smoother,primary case is a lot cooler,engine revs "free". If I had not done this I would not have believed an oil change would make that much difference.

The reason for this change is just like the Falex test. The cam chains are a flat rubber covered tensionner with a really stiff spring. The primary chain is tripple row with a spring loaded tensionner that is effectively a brake shoe dragging on the chain. Other than the big stroke and piston drag everything else runs on roller bearings. It went from running like I was dragging something behind me to just floating along. You would back off throttle some and it felt like you jambed on the brakes.

I know that primary case would get so hot it felt like an exhaust pipe and the RP cooled it right down. If any other oil like Amsoil made this kind of effect you could tell.

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:13 am

From looking at the graph, my simple "graphics are best" type of brain tells me that there's a consensus between most of those manufacturers as to the additives content....

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:24 pm

GM Performance 88862586 E.O.S. Cam Lifter Break-In Pre-Lube

As much Zinc as anyone will need...

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:35 pm

If you can still get it. My local dealer said it was discontinued a couple of years now. I think the new number is 88862586, They may have changed the product.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-88862586/

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:38 pm

raycfe wrote:

If you can still get it. My local dealer said it was discontinued a couple of years now. I think the new number is 88862586, They may have changed the product.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-88862586/

Yeah, I fixed the number in post.

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:35 pm

I swear by this stuff.....if you do not use this to break in a flat tappet motor....
it WILL wipe out the cam.......

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/Products/Products.aspx?superTypeName='Lubricants'&index=0&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Thinking about what Bill said before about 1100f cams being all wore out now.....
I use the GN-4 in my stuff......but am thinking of switching to the Purple.....

Just FYI.......their Wheel Bearing grease is the shit.....and is good for three to four times as
long on a trailer.....Throw away the bearing buddies!!!!!!!

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:22 pm

I've used Redline Oil in everything from turbo diesel trucks to aircooled 4cyl superbikes to an '08 GSXR1000 superbike, to 2 stroke 250cc GP bikes and never had an oil related issue on teardown or otherwise.

http://www.redlineoil.com/

Sometimes a little hard to find and not the cheapest stuff out there, but....

Everyone has their favorite brew I guess.

DH

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:34 pm

Oh Jeez, there goes another kitten.

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:08 pm

I'm running the Brad Penn oil in my aircooled VW motor and haven't had any issues. Alot of aircooled vw people swear by the ZDDplus because they can use it with any oil.

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:18 pm

PGSmick wrote:

Oh Jeez, there goes another kitten.

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:18 am

Download the Street Commodores oil test and see how Redline did.

It as basic a test as you can get. Oil in a cup,bearing pressed against a spinning wheel and the load raised till something fails.

I love the nay sayers that say was designed to test grease. Never saw grease in a cup. Timkin developed this test in the 1930's to test for the extreme pressure agents,like zinc,that was not included in many oils. Looks like EPA is now the villan removing it.

A lot of people found out the hard way that their "favorite" oil was now different,but the bottle was the same. Brad Penn is the old good Kendall. Kind of like going to a bar and ordering a CC(Canadian Club) and 7 and getting instead a 7 (Segrams 7) and 7,not the same thing.

It sure as shit is not going to wipe the base circle. It will wipe the max lift part. These bikes are effectivly a flat tappet cam. It is not flooded lube like main or rod bearings but a direct straight dragging friction that the "zinc" or other is needed.

The problem was discovered by the cam grinders. Same small block Chevy as 1955,same cam grinds that worked for 30+ years,but all of a sudden wipes right out. It was the oils that were changed by government without regard to what that change meant.

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:43 am

sonicrete wrote:

It sure as shit is not going to wipe the base circle. It will wipe the max lift part. These bikes are effectivly a flat tappet cam. It is not flooded lube like main or rod bearings but a direct straight dragging friction that the "zinc" or other is needed.

The problem was discovered by the cam grinders. Same small block Chevy as 1955,same cam grinds that worked for 30+ years,but all of a sudden wipes right out. It was the oils that were changed by government without regard to what that change meant.

It sure as shit isn't......When Gordon Hallloway...a twenty year rep with Comp Cams....came to me with the information that the "normal" oils don't work anymore....and three of my Chevy cam jobs went flat...I made a decision...
The honda oil has what you need......throw a little additive for those who have the 1100 cams.....
I don't ride enough to give the indifference......but I will give ten thousand hours as a
pro engine builder....to tell you Bill is right.....to a point....

Peace,
Jebby

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:55 am

DeltaHotel wrote:

Everyone has their favorite brew I guess.

DH

I like Black Butte Porter myself.

BeerAdvocate.com

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:07 am

I never used regular auto oil in any of my cars. Always used the Valvoline Racing Oil. This had a higher zinc content even back then.

Lately they changed the racing oil so went to the Motorcycle oil in everything. What was it SG or SH like the old racing oil was?

For the same reason STP new car treatment was removed from the market I will bet other "zinc" additives will see the same fate. Psstt want to buy some "Freon"? It's the good stuff. The government does something and we find a way around it if possible.

Every brand of oil has had the zinc cut way back. The brand you used "for years" is not the same now. This was the reason the Japanese came out with the JASO-MA standard because they dicovered that auto oil was no good in a bike.

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:12 pm

There goes another kitten....

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:24 am

I've used Shell VSX in my Triumph 955 for the last 12 years,it has 123,000 km on the clock and the inside of the engine is very clean,cam wear is negligible.I put a new cam chain in at 110,000 km as a precaution but wasn't badly worn.
My 1187 cb750 sidecar has been run on the same oil for the last 14 years also with no cam wear,just for interest sake the outfit weighs in at almost 400 kg,so the engine is always working hard,& I don't spare thr revs!

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:12 am

Interesting story.

I had to have my new Honda Civic's engine replaced (dealer cost) a couple of years ago. A truck tire tread took my front fascia out and the dealer replaced it. Unfortunately, they had removed my lower radiator hose and did not tighten the clamp correctly. In busy summer commuting traffic, by the time I realized my temperature was pegged, and pulled to the side of the road, the engine was toast.

Honda does not sell a whole engine, only separate bottom ends and top ends. The parts came with special oil. Talking to the parts department, this oil was not available any other way, and must be replaced at 450 miles. Supposedly it is the same oil used at the factory to break in the engines prior to installation into the car.

You have to wonder what is in this oil but I'm sure it involves a lot of Zinc.

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:37 pm

AMSOIL zinc/phosphorus #'s;

The 10w40 MC oil has a zinc content of 1436 ppm and the phosphorus is 1321 ppm.

The 20w50 MC oil runs 1440 ppm of zinc and 1316 ppm of phosphorus.

The link to their M/C oil study is down for some reason. AMSOIL has done 2 seperate tests/editions of the M/C oil study now and not one of the competitors contests it. All those lawyers in the big oil companies back pockets and no one has taken a shot at them.

BTW, Royal Purple was sued not long ago for making claims with no facts to back it up;

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001398592.cfm?x=bfmW6PM,b1M25KBS

Fact is, run whatever floats your boat, just change it reguarly. I personally prefer the piece of mind in my investments with having my crankcase filled with AMSOIL. Wink

I run it in everything I own from bikes to my wife's Subie, (160K and still purrs like a kitten), my '91 SHO, even in my lawn tractor and it has never "pinged" again on a hot summer day of mowing.

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

Fastball wrote:

AMSOIL zinc/phosphorus #'s;

The 10w40 MC oil has a zinc content of 1436 ppm and the phosphorus is 1321 ppm.

The 20w50 MC oil runs 1440 ppm of zinc and 1316 ppm of phosphorus.

The link to their M/C oil study is down for some reason. AMSOIL has done 2 seperate tests/editions of the M/C oil study now and not one of the competitors contests it. All those lawyers in the big oil companies back pockets and no one has taken a shot at them.

BTW, Royal Purple was sued not long ago for making claims with no facts to back it up;

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001398592.cfm?x=bfmW6PM,b1M25KBS

Fact is, run whatever floats your boat, just change it reguarly. I personally prefer the piece of mind in my investments with having my crankcase filled with AMSOIL. Wink

I run it in everything I own from bikes to my wife's Subie, (160K and still purrs like a kitten), my '91 SHO, even in my lawn tractor and it has never "pinged" again on a hot summer day of mowing.

Sorry Dave, but in my humble experience, Amsoil spams ALL the oil tests out there.... You have to go 6 pages in on a google search to even begin to find objective tests w/o Amsoil ads popping up everywhere. Show me an INDEPENDENT study and see how they compare.. they show up as middle of the pack or slightly above the pack, but hardly ever top of the pack...

Mobil One beats them in many tests, as does Valvoline, Royal Purple, Spectro Gold, Rotella...but like you said, run what ever floats your boat.

As to that BP lawsuit... Here is Royal Purple response, and I also wonder WHY Amsoil has NEVER submitted to the Commodore test. Smile

Ive searched many a site, and time after time, Ive read posts from END USERS who praise RP..... they have switched from all types of oils because RP quieted thier transmissions, gave them better running engines, etc..etc.. I take studies with a grain of salt, but when person after person steps up to the plate and praises RP, I begin to listen....

Quote:

Mark McFann
VP Sales & Marketing

April 13, 2009

Dear Royal Purple Consumer:

You may have read some of the information and/or misinformation that is being circulated regarding BP/Castrol's NAD complaint about Royal Purple.

Here's what transpired:

In 2008 BP/Castrol filed a complaint with the National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus regarding the marketing claims on the Royal Purple Corporate website. The complaint from Castrol asserted that there are no widely accepted industry tests to support the independent test results posted on the “Why Use Royal Purple” page of the site. Additionally, Castrol complained that the performance improvement estimates Royal Purple posted would not be experienced by all Royal Purple customers.

Castrol has a long history of aggressively complaining about other lubricant companies' advertising. This complaint was simply a competitive tactic by Castrol and there have been no consumer complaints to the NAD or BBB about Royal Purple.

Since the value of Royal Purple products speak for themselves, we could not justify the time, effort and considerable expense of a legal battle with Castrol. It was more efficient to simply remove the percentage estimates from our website.

Royal Purple stands behind the quality and performance of its products and fully warrants its motor oils for use in any vehicle assuming the proper viscosity is selected.

It's very important to note that the NAD incorrectly stated that Royal Purple motor oils are not API licensed. We're working to get the NAD to make a correction to their statement. Here's a link to the API site showing the API Licensees. http://eolcs.api.org/ Just type Royal Purple in the 'Search for a Brand Name" for a list of our API licenses.

There have appeared at least two articles reporting the NAD challenge. One of them relays the story in the most negative context possible when in fact, the small changes suggested by NAD had already been voluntarily completed by Royal Purple. It's suspected this major oil company, having spent six figures on an advertising challenge with the NAD, is now trying to milk the results for all they can. You can view the actual case report from the NAD at http://www.nadreview.org/DocView.aspx?DocumentID=7316

With all deference this major oil company, we've rapidly gained market share and customer satisfaction. It’s obvious that this major will do whatever they can to protect market share. Please feel free to contact a Royal Purple representative should you have any questions or concerns.

Regards,

P.S. My 86 Honda Accord has 176k on her, doesnt burn oil, and I didnt start using synthetic oils in her until 4 years ago.... I think a better built engine in the first place helps a lot... Very Happy

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:11 am

OK my two cents.

About 20 yrs ago at the Gainesville race Royal Purple had a display set-up. They had this half naked girl that the bathing suit almost showed her lips,if you understand. The guys that were with me kept filming her with my camera,so naturally my wife sees the video and gives me grief. The Funny Bike guys were saying that this oil made their bike faster.

Naturally I thought was all advertising especially considering the eye candy.

So after my kid lost two engines due to Mobil 1. I got to create a frankenstein engine due to the damage Mobil 1 caused,they started looking for something better which is how they found the Street Commodores artical.

It was after I put it my Harley and got such a freer running motor it made sense. Same deal in every motor weve tried. Even firearms already lubed by Hoppes gun oil,move smoother with just a drop or two of RP. Whether they got sued by sour grapes BP or not this stuff works. In the past BP was one of the worst oils you could get, right next to Quaker State. That crap when it burned would leave this rock hard asphalt deposit,where Valvoline did not.

No doubt the Amsoil does this nice test. I do not believe it since where the RP is compared to the Mobil in their own test. This totally contradicts what we already found. Now to me they do not want to give any press to the RP,so short change it. Real simple put some in the cup and due the Falex test on it. Show the bearing and the load it took. Words lie real still when they show nothing.

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:25 pm

I'd be happy to send you a copy of the oil study since the link is down, Bob. You'll see all those oil you mentioned do not stand up. Just PM/email me your email address if interested.

My last Subaru Legacy had 249K + on her when I drove her to the junk yard. Body was shot underneath and would not pass the annual state inspection. I ran 160K+ of those miles myself with Walmart oil. So yes, I agree the engine make has much to do with it. The thing that sucked for me was that I was changing the oil every 3-4 weeks with my long as commute down to Baltimore.

I'm doing that commute again, starting last month and with the AMSOIL, once a year/25K oil change,....saves me time, $$ and all that waste oil to dispose of. I met a guy about 3 months ago that hasn't changed his oil in his '95 SHO in almost 6yrs! Something like 100K on that same oil. He tests it every year and the lab report comes back that it's still good. Changes the filter, tops it off and good to go. He's running AMSOIL, BTW.
Oh yeah, the Falex Test;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5WXbj5jbN8

BTW, still got that video with the hottie, Bill???

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:42 am

Do you actually believe those assholes?

You use a fresh surface on the bearing or a new bearing everytime.

Then show what it looks like.

Also the real machine uses weights not a guy twisting a torque wrench. This puts a constant load,then increased in steps.

At the maximum load most oils stop the machine. In the case of Royal Purple it does not sieze up and stop. Then can shut it off with the load still on it,even pull the oil away,and start it back up.

An old trick to fool the machine is laundry bleach. It has a product name as well Prolong or Duralube. Basically waxy bleach. Surpise,surpise,Harley oil has a bleach smell. The chlorine turns into hydrochloric acid inside the motor.

You pull the bearing off and show it. The Royal Purple will have almost no mark,wonder what the Amsoil would look like?

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:14 am

I will use any oil that uses half-naked women to promote their product.

Brian

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:18 pm

Anybody who doesn't change the oil in their car for 100k is an asshole......