NGK Iridiums: Will a 2HP gain convince you now?

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

Quote:

While Dyno testing a problem bike (a Yamaha TX750) it was discovered that customer supplied Iridium spark plugs caused the engine to gain 2 HP. Further Dyno gain seems to be from improved combustion chamber flame front spread in the 650's old style combustion chamber. The same results were obtained on engines with points, factory Tci and Boyer ignitions. We determined that the shape and position of the nose and electrode caused the gain and not any enhancement of spark. Smoothing of the dips in the power curve, increased acceleration, reduced fuel consumption and up to 4 times longer plug life can also be expected. Dyno by Heiden Tuning.

http://www.mikesxs.net/mikesxs-electrical.php?category_id=2.1

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:41 pm

Nope...it won't... Razz

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:46 pm

Nope - still skeptical Wink

.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:50 pm

Should be easy enough to check if burned is still around.

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:02 pm

CB1100F wrote:

Should be easy enough to check if burned is still around.

Wouldn't some time on a dragstrip be a better way to test it?

Fight

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

Quote:

Wouldn't some time on a dragstrip be a better way to test it?

Naw, use more octane booster and then Dyno it!!!

roflmao

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:15 pm

BTW that's like a 5+% increase on that motor. I'm running down to Autozone now.

While I'm gone can someone send a message to NGK? Their website is still making this crazy claim...

Q: How much of a performance improvement can I expect from changing plugs?

A: A common misconception is that changing spark plugs will result in a large power increase. In most cases, removing even seriously worn out spark plugs will only result in very modest power gains, typically about 1-2% of total engine output. This could be even less for computer-controlled vehicles, primarily because most newer vehicles have more powerful ignition systems and the vehicle's computer can make adjustments so that vehicle operation seems smoother and more seamless.

Many people think that simply supplying more spark to the firing tip can and will combust more fuel. What they don't understand is that most newer cars' engines are so efficient that they are already burning all of the available fuel. Simply adding more spark voltage can't burn more fuel because there is no more fuel to burn.

When a stock or near-stock engine is given a fresh set of spark plugs, peak efficiency is restored. The power gains that come from this restored state of tune are usually minimal. Any company that tells you that their spark plug will provide significant gains in power in a stock or near-stock engine is making blanket statements that may not be supportable.

I may need to stop for gas too...

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

A couple of observations....

First, the NGK site refers to NEWER engines, not 25 year old, air cooled 650 twins or in-line fours.

Secondly, MikesXS NEVER sold these plugs until only recently, presumably after he saw the DYNO results. Ive dealt with him for years, so I dont doubt his experience with these plugs

Third, he tested them on two different model years, with the same result.

Lastly, shop around, the prices vary... even if the "5%" HP claim is overrrated, the FOUR times life expectancy more then makes up for the price. Shocked

I have also noticed better gas mileage in both Da Beast and my 900... so thats another bonus for me Cool

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:59 pm

CB1100F wrote:

BTW that's like a 5+% increase on that motor. I'm running down to Autozone now.

While I'm gone can someone send a message to NGK? Their website is still making this crazy claim...

Q: How much of a performance improvement can I expect from changing plugs?

A: A common misconception is that changing spark plugs will result in a large power increase. In most cases, removing even seriously worn out spark plugs will only result in very modest power gains, typically about 1-2% of total engine output. This could be even less for computer-controlled vehicles, primarily because most newer vehicles have more powerful ignition systems and the vehicle's computer can make adjustments so that vehicle operation seems smoother and more seamless.

Many people think that simply supplying more spark to the firing tip can and will combust more fuel. What they don't understand is that most newer cars' engines are so efficient that they are already burning all of the available fuel. Simply adding more spark voltage can't burn more fuel because there is no more fuel to burn.

When a stock or near-stock engine is given a fresh set of spark plugs, peak efficiency is restored. The power gains that come from this restored state of tune are usually minimal. Any company that tells you that their spark plug will provide significant gains in power in a stock or near-stock engine is making blanket statements that may not be supportable.

I may need to stop for gas too...

Holy sheet, NGK does not seem to have a very high opinion of their own damn product! How do they make a statement like that and then expect to sell people on the merits of a premium spark plug?

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:15 am

2 HP from changing plugs?

Who cares? We're not racing, and Im certainly not spending $40 more on plugs for 2 HP even if it were true.

besides, I can just use Supreme - the extra octane gives me FIVE more hp.

Rolling Eyes

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:33 am

Blainethemono wrote:

Lastly, shop around, the prices vary... even if the "5%" HP claim is overrrated, the FOUR times life expectancy more then makes up for the price. Shocked

I have also noticed better gas mileage in both Da Beast and my 900... so thats another bonus for me Cool

Absolutely true! NGK sells them on those points alone. the question isn't whether they perform better, live longer or increase MPG, it's whether they hold some magic that will somehow extract more HP from your engine.

Even the cite above makes no claim to the plug adding power they attribute it to the shape not the spark.

Seriously wouldn't you expect any company to claim as much as they can about their product? If sparkplugs could increase HP more than just a negligible amount that number would be in ever ad you see.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:35 am

towerguy wrote:

Holy sheet, NGK does not seem to have a very high opinion of their own damn product! How do they make a statement like that and then expect to sell people on the merits of a premium spark plug?

It's not about opinion. It's about truth in advertising.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:39 am

maybe the iridum plug occupies more volume than there other tested plug, and this increase in volume in the combustion chamber is actually increasing the compression ratio.

that could account for a 2 HP gain in any engine.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:58 am

Snake oil!

Iridiums did not hold up in the OMT bike. No offense, Stout!!

Not long after I acquired the bike, I pulled them and they were freakin' caked something horrible!

Put a fresh set of D8EA's in her and threw on the stacks. She runs even more like a demon! Damn this bike is scary fun!! Twisted Evil

If you don't believe me, I still have them sitting on the side of my tool chest. I'll pull a current plug and photo the 2 side by side.

My 2 cents,......put your hard earned $$ somewhere else.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:26 pm

Fastball wrote:

Snake oil!

Iridiums did not hold up in the OMT bike. No offense, Stout!!

Not long after I acquired the bike, I pulled them and they were freakin' caked something horrible!

Put a fresh set of D8EA's in her and threw on the stacks. She runs even more like a demon! Damn this bike is scary fun!! Twisted Evil

If you don't believe me, I still have them sitting on the side of my tool chest. I'll pull a current plug and photo the 2 side by side.

My 2 cents,......put your hard earned $$ somewhere else.

Realize those plugs were really old. They were actually used with unknown history when I got them. I think you also improved the tune of the FCR carbs, which is probably the real reason the new plugs are running better.

My opinion: In a well tuned motor, new but different plugs of good quality, and the same actual heat range, should not make a difference in engine performance. Based on this, Iridiums should not hurt performance. Over time, it is recognized that the Iridiums last a very long time as compared to conventional plugs, but at three time the cost, do they last 3 times as long?

From personal experience, when I have had an engine that may not be in perfect tune, and seems to foul plugs for what ever reason, I’ve had Iridiums survive well in this environment, and possibly even mask the root problem. Granted the effort should be focused on fixing the root problem, and this will provide the best benefit to power, but throwing a set of Iridiums in the tend to get you down the road until you find the time to perfect the engine tune.

The real benefit is durability. In my wife’ Mazda Millennia S the back 3 cylinders are a SOB to change the plugs on. Being a super charged engine, there is so much crap that needs to get removed that it takes several hours to get the job done. You have to be a contortionist using mirrors to remove the plugs once you get to them. True that modern ignitions adjust themselves as needed to deal with worn plugs, it unfortunalty taxes ignition components and can cause premature wear on some expensive components. The coils on this car cost over $200 each and I’ve had to replace all 6 of them over time. I now use Iridiums on this car and have had no problems for many, many thousands of miles.

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

Quote:

Realize those plugs were really old. They were actually used with unknown history when I got them

Yeah, Stout needed them in a pinch in order to check something out. I had some lying around. $20 for the 4 of them. They had been sitting exposed on my shop bench for about a year, after running thru Da Beast for the last 2 years... Shocked

The fact that they lasted that long before failing should be seen as a testament to thier durability. Wink

Sorry Glenn, but no false advertising here, just stating from personal experience. Cool

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:54 pm

Anybody that has used them from new seems to swear by them. Whole bunches of guys on the Yahoo site use them and claim better mileage and performance.

The best thing you can do for these old ignitions (other than replace them) is to wire in a relay for the hot wires to the coils from the battery. Much better spark even on old coils. Put in some Dyna coils too and you get all kinds of spark out of stock ignitors.

http://www.cb750c.com/publicdocs/Relay/Coil_relay_diagram.pdf

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:26 am

i put them in my bike,

plugs= $50 (irridium)

wires=$100 (NGK Racing Red)

$150,, i know , i know,, im NUTS

NOW LETS RIDE!!!!!!!!!!

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:44 am

First of all the incorrect heat range is first to blame.

If 8 is correct it will also be in the Iridium. If you have blue hair and live in Florida using a "9" heat range will guarantee foul where an 8 or even a 7 would be closer to correct.

In my case the cooler plug tip of a 9 prevents/delays the detonation from the pee poor octane fuel.

Next version is correct heat range on Iriduim and it is the LAST plugs you will ever buy. 100,000 mile life on cars is common.

All of this is tuning. More timing advance will make more plug heat,so needs cooler plugs. Lean mixture is more heat,ie more power. You are trying to optimize the effects of timing advance,compression,plug heat range and ignition power,with mixture. Now throw in cam timing variation which affect the compression and you have more variables than easy fix.

Usually the maximum timing advance,compression,and octane is found first. At this limit you "blow out the fire" and need more ignition power. The small electrode acts like an igntion amplifier but mostly on life since the sharp edge of a regular plug will quickly round off and this is why they need the more voltage.

On an the dyno just proves what we figured out about 25 years ago that the Gold Palladium plug small electrode would make the bike run quicker on the track. This was different brand bikes but a consistent improver.

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:07 am

not unless i can be there to see the dyno runs and the spark plug swaps on a bike with the exact same engine as mine...

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:41 pm

Blainethemono wrote:

Sorry Glenn, but no false advertising here, just stating from personal experience. Cool

Nothing to be sorry about. Here is the claim by NGK, sounds like you agree...

LASER IRIDIUM®

Laser Iridium® spark plugs provide superior ignitability and long service life. Smallest tip diameter available Iridium / Platinum surfaces ensure slow wear rate providing stable idle, superior anti fouling, improved fuel efficiency and lower emissions

Laser welded Iridium center electrode tip
Platinum disc welded to backside of ground electrode provides long life

Trivalent Metal Plating for superior anti-corrosion and anti-seizing

Faster starts and quicker acceleration

Better fuel economy and lower emissions

Best OEM Iridium spark plug available

Original Equipment Manufacturer approved design

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:59 pm

sonicrete wrote:

Next version is correct heat range on Iriduim and it is the LAST plugs you will ever buy. 100,000 mile life on cars is common.

That in itself would seem to be a compelling reason to buy Iridium plugs all else being equal.

But spending 4x the dollars on a long lasting plug doesn't sound as cool as getting a +5% HP increase at the same time.

Again, I'm certainly not anti Iridium I'm just anti bullshit. The qualities NGK lists for these plugs DOES seem to make them the better choice, as long as we are not reading more into it than is there.

How come no one ever changes their wires to get more HP at the same time as changing their plugs? I read on the Internet some plug wires can give up to 15+ HP.

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:22 pm

stoutblock wrote:

Realize those plugs were really old. They were actually used with unknown history when I got them. I think you also improved the tune of the FCR carbs, which is probably the real reason the new plugs are running better.

Sorry, I realize my above post did sound somewhat harsh, (mental note: no posting after a bad day at work!).

Martin, actually I figured you yourself put those plus in, (new), as an upgrade. I really only eliminated one of the fuel rail feeds and threw on the stacks as fars as changes to the 39's go.

I can relate to your story of your wife's car plug changes. My SHO is murder to change the back 3 plugs! I tried something other than Motorcraft Double Plats once and she ran like garbage. Couldn't take it and went back to the MC plugs, but that's the last time for awhile. I'll pay someone to do it next time!

BTW, if one happens to get into the Amsoil product line as a "Preferred Customer", (costs about $10 for 6 months), you get a discount on their oils and they sell the Iridiums discounted, too.

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:42 pm

You need to understand something.

Many years ago I drag raced H-2 Kawasakis. I had spark plugs of about every brand and type available as well as various heat ranges. This also included "push wire",ie pure race plugs that the side electrode comes through a hole in the threads.

The heat range was a big effect since on a 2 stroke they detonate near top end when the motor heats up,this means some version of as cold as you can use.

The Gold Palladium looks "normal" except for the small center electrode. The normal looking plugs were the first to discard for improved performance so ignored the Gold Palladium for a long time,using other "race" plugs.

Long story short,the Gold Palldium showed around 1 1/2 seconds quicker on the drag strip,the largest single gain of anything we did. A simple plug replacement. Needless to say on the Honda and any other bike the FIRST choice is some version of fine wire plug. The Iridium especially with a platinum "spot" on the ground electrode is about as good as you will find. Car or bike if you put a really cold plug in to a motor driven at slow speeds,it will foul,expensive or not BECAUSE the heat range did not match the way you drive or the motor condition.

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:02 pm

sonicrete wrote:

Long story short,the Gold Palldium showed around 1 1/2 seconds quicker on the drag strip,the largest single gain of anything we did. A simple plug replacement.

A 1.5 second improvement from a plug change! That's unbelievable.

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:06 pm

Quote:

How come no one ever changes their wires to get more HP at the same time as changing their plugs? I read on the Internet some plug wires can give up to 15+ HP.

I can understand a claim like that. I had a Ford Country Squire with a Ford 390 many years ago that would burn up sparkplug wires at least once a year. It would start dropping cylinders and backfire. New wires and go again.

It also had a messed up fhrottle closing valve. The valve is supposed to hold the throttle part way open when the throttle is slammed shut to prevent backfiring.

I used to floor it and let it wind up, take my foot off of the accelerator, it would load up, and BOOM! a 6' flame would blow out the tailpipe! Sounded like a damned Howitzer! That was a gas in tunnels and underpasses with unsuspecting pedestrians. I got to where I could time it just right to singe people on the sidewalk! roflmao

I blew up 2 mufflers on that damned wagon. Laughing

Hawk Joined: Dec 03, 2006 Posts: 407 Location: Madison, WI

I would just like to chime in here with my 2cents on the longevity matter. My MR2 Spyder had NGK Iridiums, and after running rich due to a dirty mass airflow sensor, I checked the plugs for fouling. They were almost totally worn out! They couldn't have been in there for more than 20K and I've seen regular old copper plugs last longer.

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:22 pm

Yes I thought it was also.

The ignition on the H-2 was a CDI magneto,but probably not at full power internally. The ease of fire due to the small electrode effectively makes the voltage you have appear more so. This is what showed the reason for the slowish speed as ignition related.

Now realize this was not a "street bike",but a slick and bar drag bike with numerous engine porting changes. Regardless the plugs picked it up like a sec and a half and the trap speed was where the gain was made. The bike went from high 12's,like 12.75 to mid 11's.

When you say "worn out" define it. The center electrode is where the wear occurs on a regular steel electrode. It is the rounding off that makes the voltage needed increase about double that of new. At this time the side electrode that is still steel gets burned away,thus the reason they now have a platinum spot there also.

You can take out a perfect color plug that shows the rounded off center electrode and it is still junk. The reason the precious metal plugs live is because the melting point is higher than the combustion temperature,plus a small enough tip shows as a "point" that the electricity needs to jump easily.

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:33 pm

I thought the platinum spot was to cover ignitions with double coil where one fires reverse polarity. My Ford Contour 4 cylinder zetec motor used really small core plugs similar to Iridium, used double coilpacks like bike. Motor had two different Motorcraft plug part numbers in it from the factory, when plugs pulled, it became obvious that two of the plugs had the spot and two didn't. I thought that odd at the time. It took forever for the aftermarket to make a plug that I didn't have to pay FORD $10 bucks for (1998), but when they did all had the spot on them so to save confusion I suppose.