OH JOY! Gasohol!!!!

MB-5 Joined: Dec 28, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: VA Beach, VA

Finding parts and performing maintenance on old bikes is tedious enough... but it will soon grow more aggravating.

I recently attended a Yamaha update training seminar (for work, my username should give you an idea) and nearly two hours were spent discussing the upcoming problems of Ethanol in the fuel system. There were some interesting points that I think I should share with you all.

Ethanol doesn't actually dissolve in gasoline; it emulsifies, which means it readily comes out of solution again and forms its own layer. This can happen in as little as two weeks of sitting still. You can't shake the tank like salad dressing and expect it to freshen-up either. Ethanol is a molecular sponge that happily absorbs any kind of moisture or condensation, dragging the water along in the fuel system. When the fuel stops flowing the internal corrosion begins. Ethanol is also a great solvent that can free up rust when the fuel begins to move... the same rust that it just caused by dragging water along in the first place. This rust always ends up where you don't want it, like fuel pumps and jet holes. Ethanol will also make rubber, plastic, and neoprene parts swell or become brittle. (e.g. O-rings, diaphrams, and hoses) I've taken some plastic fuel filters apart in the shop and had to let them air-dry or they wouldn't thread back together again.

You never notice the effects of Ethanol in your daily driver because we do an unprecidented amount of driving nowadays. Most of us burn a whole tank of gas in 10 days or less, and refuel at high-volume stations that get a fresh tanker load every night. However.... seasonal vehicles such as boats and motorcycles WILL SUFFER greatly. I've seen rusted injectors and fuel pumps, as well drained fuel tanks that were HALF water, separated in a distinct layer.
The following symptoms used to have certain diagnoses:
"My bike doesn't start when it's cold"
"My fuel is cloudy"
"I'm losing power"
"I pulled the bike out of the shed and it won't fire"
"There's rust in the bottom of my carb bowls"
But now, we'll have to add Ethanol / Water fouling to our considerations.

There's two solutions. Either 1) ride every day. or 2) drain the bowls at least once a month to purge any water (it sinks to the bottom).

Guys, I know Ethanol isn't news.... but I guarantee it's sitting in your garage right now. Just be aware.

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:49 pm

Some intresting info!

I was talking to the Merc dealer this summer and he was saying they are getting an insane amount of work due to this stuff. The ethanol eats away at the crap in the tank releasing it into the rest of the fuel system. He said they even bought there own ultrasonic cleaning washer just due to this influx.

He mentioned the same deal, folks had the boat serviced in the early spring, let them sit till it got warm, then the boat was right back in the shop! Not exactly sure why he didn't put a fuel fiter on them? Maybe some of the gum can bypass that? Anyway...

Lucky I have plastic gas tanks. Smile

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:28 am

Perhaps you need to send your mechanics to Canada.
We've been using it for decades without problems.
There are additives (added at the same time as the ethanol) to keep it in suspension. Along with may other additives as I'm sure you are aware.

It is only added at a 10% mix, it will only absorb 10% of its volume (when pure) so worst case you would absorb 1% moisture. (Not a problem as you know living in a 100% humid environment)

This story about 1/2 a tank of water is a faulty tank/ delivery system, not a ethanol problem.

Now if your taking running 100% alcohol were in another book altogether.

MB-5 Joined: Dec 28, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: VA Beach, VA

Technically, you are correct about the fuel supply. Here in the US we've been having a bit of inconsistency in fuel quality, and ethanol content. Sometimes fuel advertised as E10% can be as high as 25%, and the problem is compounded if the in-ground tanks have a slow sales turn over. Bottom line is, the fuel we're using today is trash compared to the fuel of 1980.

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:07 am

25 gallons of fuel is 1 quart of water at 1%. I assure you, if that amount of water is at bottom of tank where pickup is, your engine will not eat all of it before it dies and will not start again. I suspect here in Texas that the content of ethanol sometimes is higher than 10%. Have seen this fuel stratification occur in 15-30 minutes of fuel poured in a open container outside in high humidity. I have seen carbs on stored vehicles repeatedly show problems when put back in service. The needles will be stuck in whatever position they ended up in when stored, open if carb drained or closed if bowls not emptied. New fuel will not make them unstick, you must physically take carb apart and work the needle loose. A touch will do it, couple of times the "rap on carb body with a hard object" trick would knock it loose, then bike would run fine, no resticking. There will be no trash in carb needle area before you fix it. Never have had this problem before, always just turned the gas back on and started it up. I think something in the new fuel mix has a tendency to make the needles stick if they aren't working all the time. That's along with the added corrosion problems that seem to be occurring MUCH FASTER than before. On the flipside, I have a Contour that was down for 3/4 year while I got around to repairing transmission. Was terrified of these problems showing up in it. It fired right up and ran fine with what I am sure is ethanol fuel and I have burned out nearly the whole tank of old fuel troublefree. It was full when I started storage. I'm considering whether FI plays a part in that fuel exposed much less to atmosphere in vehicle. Carbs got air vents and purpose built air leaks all over them, would have a tendency to expose a small amount of fuel (in bowl) to air allowing the problem to show up much easier. The problem vehicles I refer to are left outside and are carburated. Modern fuel tanks in cars still have to vent to atmosphere as before but it's much more controlled than before, also, the tanks are plastic to not corrode. Hell, most of the fuel pump assembly is plastic too.

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:29 pm

All I can add is that I personaly have been using the 10% ethenol mixed fuel for over 20 years now without ANY problmes at all.
Yes I drain my carbs for long storage (over a year) but for just over winter storage I add some Stabil and park it.

Everything starts right up every spring.

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:57 pm

The problem is not the 10% blend,it is politicians. If 10% is good then 20% will be better,it won't cause any problems either.

It is the coming "flex fuel" using 85%,ie E85, I will bet cause just gobs of problems.

My question is still how the vehicle adjusts for the different fuel. Like what if you run low and need fuel and E85 is not a choice. Can the vehicle run on what will be E45 or some other mix in between?

You can bet that eventually after some time with an alcohol blend of E85 there will be a lot of water remaining in tanks and it WILL cause problems.

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:38 am

I have never used Stabil before until just recently, after these problems began to show up enough that I realized it WAS getting to be a problem. Verdict still out on it's effects since it's use so recent.

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:49 pm

I never had problems over the winter. Usually just fill the tank to the top and that was it. Got a new 06 Harley SuperGlide and worried about the fuel injection so tried the Stabil for the first time,since I had a container of it. I had enough to put it in all the bikes at the correct mix and rode them to distribute it.

When in the spring every bike ran like crap. Took several tanks of fuel to get it back,my guess to fiinally get the Stabil out.

Want to guess if I will ever use that crap again? Guy across the alley had the "Stabil" gas cap to prevent lawn mwer problems. His mower also ran like crap and we "fixed it" by the old dump out and refuel to replace the cap with the stock one,trick.

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:42 pm

LOL
I must be the luckyest bastard on the planet....

I'm off to the lotery right F'n now...
roflmao

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:48 pm

Maybe your stuff just runs so poorly that you cannot tell.

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:55 pm

same experience here with stabil.

i store all my stuff with plain old 110 leaded race fuel.

never a issue.

Hawk Joined: Aug 18, 2006 Posts: 272 Location: Alsip, Ill

I have used Stabil in my lawn mowers, snow blowers,generator and my sons '68 roadrunner each year for the past 10-yrs with no problems, at the start of each season they fire up like they were used last week. Before I used Stabil I had to fight my equipment to get it started the first time...........This is the first year I have used it in my bike.......hope it works

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:11 am

Stabil, it's more of an intelligence test.

You're going to store the snowblower/lawn mower for half a year. You know the gas is going to go bad in 3 months. Do you add a fuel stabalizer to make it last for upwards of a year?

I have only ever heard of one person having a problem with stabil, but a lot of his things just "do not live".

http://www.goldeagle.com/sta-bil/faqs_stabil.asp

MB-5 Joined: Dec 28, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: VA Beach, VA

It's amazing the variety of experiences on this issue, yah? Fascinating about dude's Contour sitting for so long and firing back up.... I guess all the sensors compensated in an EFI vehicle. If the O2 sensor can handle the different Ethanol mixtures, then great. In our ancient carbureted motorcycles though.....

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:47 am

i think the issue with stabil is if you use to much of it.

im pretty sure that was my issue.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:03 am

sonicrete wrote:

Maybe your stuff just runs so poorly that you cannot tell.

OOh ouch...Perhaps your right. Razz

I'm pretty sure I'll make it down the next few thousand 1/4 miles though.. Very Happy

Perhaps you made an error in you math when you calculated the volume required?
Easy enough to do....

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:04 am

I did not say it did not "start right up",I said it affected the running of the bike. It acted just like dead fuel. The guys lawn mower would not mow it kept bogging down in the heavy grass. That was why I ended up looking at it.

All of the vehicles acted "dead" no life,much more than just over the winter sitting. This effect maintained until I ran the tank empty and a full fill,just dilluting it some did not seem to help. I only used a small amount in the bikes and was why I had enough to do all the bikes,but as I said never again.

In my case on the snow blower the easy way and lawn mower for that matter is to run the engine dry. Snow blower is easy it has a fuel shut off to the carb.

Before there was Stabil the way to do it was fill the gas tank to the top,this prevented condensation. Drain the float bowls so the needles were away from the seats and no fuel to evaporate and plug the jets. This method worked but with new gas blends maybe not anymore.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:13 pm

Doesn't everything run better on "fresh" fuel?

No one said put some in your bike before a race either....

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:01 pm

It is not that it does not seem to leave.

Has anyone checked on how it does the Stabil magic,ie what does it do to keep the fuel "fresh".

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:47 pm

Been using stabil for some 30 years now in all my old cars,lawn equipment and non injected motorcycles. Also Harley specifically states do not uses stabil in their fuel injected motorcycles!!!! As far as 10% alky gas I have not had any problem here in central Illinois. I use stabil for winter storage only and my equipment starts and runs fine in the spring. For long term storage of more than a year I drain carbs and tanks. Oh yeah as far as using racing gas for storage "bad idea" The only problem I ever had with bike carbs was in my fj1200 when it was new and I stored it with leaded racing gas and had to clean the carbs(what a mess). I believe this happened because racing gas has no climate or detergent additives?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:51 pm

bbadfred wrote:

Been using stabil for some 30 years now in all my old cars,lawn equipment and non injected motorcycles. Also Harley specifically states do not uses stabil in their fuel injected motorcycles!!!! As far as 10% alky gas I have not had any problem here in central Illinois. I use stabil for winter storage only and my equipment starts and runs fine in the spring. For long term storage of more than a year I drain carbs and tanks. Oh yeah as far as using racing gas for storage "bad idea" The only problem I ever had with bike carbs was in my fj1200 when it was new and I stored it with leaded racing gas and had to clean the carbs(what a mess). I believe this happened because racing gas has no climate or detergent additives?

very strange indeed.

i find the stuff to be very stabil and doesnt turn to varnish.

do you remember what brand it was?

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:06 pm

sonicrete wrote:

It is not that it does not seem to leave.

Has anyone checked on how it does the Stabil magic,ie what does it do to keep the fuel "fresh".

http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/surv/sta-bil.htm

What Happens to Fuel When it is Stored?
Any fuel, be it gasoline, diesel, or heating fuel, is made up of many different organic compounds. These organic compounds are constantly changing over time becoming new compounds that change the characteristics of fuel. The same molecules that make up the best parts of gasoline can react with oxygen and other elements in the environment and form new molecules that build up to form gummy residues or varnish-like films that can clog up passages in fuel lines, carburetors, and injectors.
Some fuels are treated with oxidation inhibitors to allow them to be stored for up to 3 months without generating excessive deposits. Other fuels have no inhibitors at all. In any case, storage of equipment requires some special consideration for the fuel system.

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Why Can't These Problems be Avoided by Draining Fuel?
One way to avoid most of these deposits is to completely drain the fuel tank and fuel lines. This procedure poses a number of problems. First, it is virtually impossible to get every drop of fuel out of the system by simply draining. In order to remove all fuel, lines must be blown out and dried, or enough fuel will remain to cause problems. Second, draining the fuel exposes the bare metal in the tank and fuel system to air and moisture which, together, can result in the formation of rust and corrosion and which can allow gaskets to dry out, crack and shrink, leading to fuel leaks when the system is refilled. Third, drained fuel is a fire and safety hazard and represents an environmental problem. Properly disposing of this fuel is difficult. For these reasons, draining is not the solution.
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Does Fuel Stored in a Tank or Can Cause Problems?
Fuel stored in cans or tanks will also oxidize with many of the "bad acting" unstable molecules remaining in the solution. Using this fuel next season, greatly increases the likelihood that deposits will form in fuel systems while the equipment is used. In other words, stored fuel needs treatment too.
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What Does STA-BIL Do?
STA-BIL is a blend of scientific additives all of which act together to prevent fuel from undergoing degradation and oxidation during prolonged storage. STA-BIL acts as a protective wrapper around fuel molecules so they cannot combine with oxygen or other molecules to form new "bad actor" molecules. The "sweetened" fuel will perform its job thereafter as though it had just been freshly pumped into the fuel tank straight from the refinery pipeline.
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How Well Does STA-BIL Work?
Better than you can imagine. On average, STA-BIL improves gasoline life 5 times. The average gasoline is extended from 3 months oxidation life without STA-BIL to 15 months with STA-BIL. Compared to any other products pretending to extend fuel life, STA-BIL is 4 to 9 times more effective according to accepted standard fuel stability tests IASTM D5251.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:28 pm

Double Post by the man!! Razz

Bet Glenn can make it go away if he wants Wink

Dave

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:10 am

I agree that Gasohol/Flex-Fuel is probably more of a political red-herring than a real eventuality in North America.

I have my doubts about E-85 ever happening on a large scale. Ethanol is a low power fuel; MPG and performance would be low compared to regular gasoline...CO2 emissions would actually be higher per mile. It also takes alot of resources: power/land/fertilizer to grow and then distill the stuff. It doesn't work well in colder climates and of course all the other negatives listed by "the boat guy" and others here.

"Butanol" is the word on the street here in Northern Arabia. It is a high power fuel first synthesized in WW2 but shelved when the war ended. It is compatible with gasoline engines. They are working on it at the University of Alberta here with BIG OIL chipping in for the research. So far it looks promising, and the engineers are claim they are getting MORE HP than gasoline when run in the same engine. Idea

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:55 am

Typical politician,install Al Gore here,that does not know Jack Sh!t about anything.

Pushed MTBE in fuel to help air pollution and ended up poisioning th ground water.

Now pushing "green" fuel. Totally ignoring the sugar,or the CO2 from fermenting the "mash",or the energy to run the still. Farmers being paid subsidies to grow the corn and end up not growing wheat,so the price of all kind of things goes up. Like milk,eggs,chickens,beef,you name it.

Unless some basic laws of physics have been repealed,alcohol gets worse mileage than gasoline,about 1/2. If the E85 is more than 1/2 the price even with the subsidies,you still loose on the deal.