SuperMotard track day bike

Guest

Hey Maru,

I'm gonna throw some money at a race motard in January for the 2007 season.

Looking for some advice if you have it to give Smile

I'm 140lbs, 5'5" (30" inseam) - I don't have any dirt experience worth mentioning but have been riding street bikes off and on since I was 16 (I'm 39 now)

I want to try my hand at a season with supermoto NW but don't want to get in over my head (haha!!) with something too big/powerful - I think I'd like to start out on a 250 so I can develop some skills on something manageable for a season and if all goes well jump up for the next year.

Any recommedations on what I should be looking for? It would be race only and I'm gonna look for something used and SM ready. Got any idea on price ranges.... I've been haunting some boards for information for months but there isn't much out there on 250s - "No dude get the 625! this that and the other thing..." Smile

I know to stick with a 4-stroke

Maybe I'm just nervous or overly cautious... but I'd rather be "underpowered" and learn to ride then looking for trouble on a 450+ without some saddle time. I also don't want to dump a LOT of money on something until I'm ready to move up....

Thanks in advance.

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:25 pm

Azoton wrote:

Hey Maru,

I'm gonna throw some money at a race motard in January for the 2007 season.

Looking for some advice if you have it to give Smile

I'm 140lbs, 5'5" (30" inseam) - I don't have any dirt experience worth mentioning but have been riding street bikes off and on since I was 16 (I'm 39 now)

I want to try my hand at a season with supermoto NW but don't want to get in over my head (haha!!) with something too big/powerful - I think I'd like to start out on a 250 so I can develop some skills on something manageable for a season and if all goes well jump up for the next year.

Any recommedations on what I should be looking for? It would be race only and I'm gonna look for something used and SM ready. Got any idea on price ranges.... I've been haunting some boards for information for months but there isn't much out there on 250s - "No dude get the 625! this that and the other thing..." Smile

I know to stick with a 4-stroke

Maybe I'm just nervous or overly cautious... but I'd rather be "underpowered" and learn to ride then looking for trouble on a 450+ without some saddle time. I also don't want to dump a LOT of money on something until I'm ready to move up....

Thanks in advance.

Just my .02 cents. Given the popularity of the Honda CRF450R, it may be a good idea to start on a CRF250R. That way when you move up the bike will feel that much more familiar. And some components such as big brakes may be a straight across swap to your new bike.

Jumping into Supermoto is something I have been pondering as well. I've been following this thread, as well as everything Maru contributes, and your question is one that I share. But I think for a developing rider, sticking with a family of bikes as you move up may be a wise move.

Also, I just like Hondas. Very Happy

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:33 pm

Hi Az. I have a close buddy that builds motors for mx and he would be the guy to ask about 250's. He called me yesterday and i was not in and i called him today and he was not in. When we stop playing phone tag i will get his input to my response. I don't know much about the 250's but in my opinion you are looking at two bikes. The Yamaha and the Honda. I know both can be convinced to give up some horsepower. I rode a Honda crf250 and i really liked the way the bike fit me but the bike made nothing for power until it was really spinning and even then it felt slow. It will take some work to get either to work on pavement. If your budget is limited you can build a sportsman bike which uses the stock wheels and some pavement oriented tires, but 17's and true racing tires are better. You will definately need at least an oversized rotor and a caliper relocation bracket but a complete front brake upgrade would be better. these things have the potential to wag the bars in top gear. You need to run your steering head bearings on the tight side or run a scotts style damper, the damper is better.

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:51 pm

If you run a sportsman style bike, i hear you want to drop the nose as low as you can, until the forks hit the bars. i have heard a bunch of conflicting info on suspension setup but you probably want top run stock ride hight and about 65mm of rear sag. If the suspension is not revalved you are going to want the compression adjuster in the front near max to control dive. The rebound bleed for the rear needs to be near max also to reduce the possibility of a highside. Chatter in the front seems to be a problem for some and tire choice seems to factor in heavily here. A slipper clutch makes riding these things at or near the limit alot safer and alot easier. My husky suspension is currently totaly stock, i have not even bothered to check the sag. Those that know me find that hard to believe but for now it works fine, but don't forget my bike came from the factory as a motard bike. The same will not be true for a converted MX bike. I have a buddy that will run a sportsman style bike in a trackday in nthe spring so i will be able to tell you more how that works out and give you some ideas on set up.

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:55 pm

I am also likely to be setting up a Husky 610 motard bike with a shortened suspension over the winter and I'll tell you how that works out. Please keep me updated on what you buy and how your season progresses. We can exchange data as the year progresses. These things are very diffferent setuo wise compared to a traditional roadracer, but i love riding them, they are so awsome.

Guest

No sweat. I'll let you know what I end up with... right now my lean is the crf with 17's and a brake upgrade (if I have to set it up myself) and go out and have some fun. I've seen the sportsman kit and have seen them work for people in a pinch but I'm more inclined to spend a few extra bucks for "the right tool for the job" - plus I have a buddy that races SV's which gives me a cheap source for tires Smile

It's just local club racing and my intent is fun and friendly competitivness (I'll be the guy lurking in the back of the pack Smile

)

Thanks for the info as always!!

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:46 am

Sorry for the delay in responding but John agreed that you would be fine with either the Yamaha or the Honda 250. Most of his customers this year ran one or the other and most were on the 250's. He felt that the Yamaha was faster in stock form but that the Honda handled better for MX and there was more aftermarket support for the H bike. He also felt that there were more H bikes out there and that they would be easier to find already converted to Motard. He felt that for racing on a true roadrace track you would be better off with a 450 but a 250 would be fine for a true motard course, especially for a beginer. He wanted to stress that these bikes were pure race bikes and that a maintanance program was necessary. He said that valves should be checked immediately and adjusted if necessary. The Yamahas break valves and the Hondas burn them. If the bike had lots of hours he recomended a valve job, new valves and springs, new piston and cam chain. Please keep me informed on your purchase. Steve

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:07 am

Your Husky is so cool! How much work did you have to do to it? I'm jealous. Smile

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:07 pm

Thanks John. It is basically stock, the tires were replaced with some takeoff Pilot race tires i got for free and the stock muffler has been modified. Since the track day I have regeared it and cleaned up the jetting just a bit. A buddy of mine will make some axel sliders for it over the winter and i plan to put some handguards on it before the next trackday. It is definately the most fun bike to ride I have ever owned.

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:47 am

my son raced mx up until last year. the 250 4 strokers will kill the average joes wallet. they simply dont hold up well at all. the 450s on the other hand will go seasons without much more than simple maintance. you'll get used to the power and be looking for more before you know it. not to mention that you might avoid having to race 16 and 17 year old kids who dont have to go to work in the morning. just a thought.

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:15 am

I agree with Larry on the maintanaNCE and the Hp. The 450's don't feel all that powerful on a roadrace course, with decent tires and brakes, you actually can get away with murder on one. I am sure they are a handful on an MX course unless your superman but on pavement with 100 plus MPH gearing they are pretty easy to ride. Maybe you should see if you can bum a ride on a 450 for a session before you spend the money on a 250? The thing about motard bikes is that a bad fast expert can be challenged by one and a total beginer can still ride it. They are light, light, have great suspensions and super ground clearance. you are going to love these things AZ!

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:45 am

I plan on using Sv takeoffs also. I currently have a 4.25 rear rim which is small for the SV rear but hope to be running a 5 inch rear if the piggy bank can handle the load. Id also love a slipper clutch. i agree that buying the 250 that is of the same brand 450 you like makes sense and that the Honda seems to be the most popular Japanese supermotard bike.

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:47 am

Did someone say "Montage, I mean... Motard?"

"07" Husqy STR-650-CRC

Husqy '07' SM610

Husqy '07' SM510R

Husqy '07' SM450R

Husqy '07' SM450RR

....which of course bring up the question of "wheel base and it's effects on handling. So you've installed your CB-ZX-GS-XYR swing arm which is about 2 inches over the stock length of the factory CB-F piece (pivot to axle center). What effects has this length increase made to the handling equation,..if any?" O.k.,...lets start another thread on that one. Nice Husqy's eh?.

Tony " He's pining for the Fiords!" Bagley

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:54 am

The blue bike is a show bike, likely to become a production bike but might not hit dealerships until 09, but maybe sooner based on how faverably it has been received. It has three things that most true motard bikes lack, a comfortable seat, a decent headlight, and decent fuel tank volume. Should be a practical streetmotard if the motor is built to run more than a few thousand miles. The powerplant in the show bike seems to be based on the twincam motor as used in the 450-510 which is a race motor with a short fuse. The 610 as depicted in the pics supplied by tiger is the only daily driver in the bunch. A close buddy of mine has one and I have quite a bit of seat time on it. Big power and killer brakes but heavy and with lazy handling compared to the 450 or 510SMR. We could talk for quite some time on the theoretical effects of a longer swingarm if you would like Tiger, start a thread. It affects a ton of things, wheelbase, wt distribution, rake- due to raising rear if you have swingarm droop, chain pull tourq reaction, and on and on. Start a thread and we can work some of the issues out. The trend used to be towards shorter arms, but modern bikes have super long arms and even motors are shortened in an effort to accomodate them without increasing wheelbase too much. In general I believe most of these old bikes benefit from a slightly longer arm.

Guest

Maru: That's not a bad idea to see if I can squeeze a little seat time on a 450... I really am leaning towards the Hondas for the very reasons you've stated. And I really wouldn't mind lower mantainance costs Wink

My main concern is getting into something overpowered for my non-existant SM skills - and not being able to physically "throw" the bike around if it's too big. I'll have to check but I think the local SM organization offers loaner bikes in an attempt to get more people involved with them.

The tracks in these parts where SMs are raced are short/tight go kart tracks. There are plenty of opportunities for roadracing style track days at PIR (Portland Intenational raceway) but I wouldn't bother dragging a 250 out there Smile

Also, looking at local prices for used crf250($3-4000) or 450 ($3800-5000) there isn't that huge of a price difference. I've been keeping an eye out for something already converted but I may have to do that myself which would run another couple grand for the basics.... we'll see here in another month when I can afford it. Smile

One one hand I like the idea of lower cost for something pre-set up but then again the idea of having a dirt bike set up is appealing too...

But boy do I like that husky you have there Wink

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:57 pm

i remember when huskys were built by swedes and were well built and sexy too. now they're off the hook gorgeous!

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:15 am

The Te's and the SMR are 50 state legal which is cool. What kind of MX bike did your son ride Larry?

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:25 am

Thanks AZ. Hey i went out to Oregon two years ago to ride a bike home for a freind. I stayed a week in a small town named Cottage Grove. Have you ever heard of it? Got to see a world of outlaws sprint car race at a small dirt track there. It was nice out there. The 250 will go fine on a true Motard course, but the bigger the layout, the more you will like the power of the big one.

Guest

Cottage Grove... yeah, a couple hours south of P-town. It is a nice place and full of hill billies Wink

I've been talking with the local organization here about bike choice.... they even have their KTM demo bike for sale from the '06 season: "It's a 06 450 smr. Ktm only wants $4500 for it."

Sounds tempting Smile

but I can't commit anything until January (refi'ing my house) - if it's still around then.... Confused

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:47 am

The SuperMotard class at NHIS is loaded with KTM's. Sounds like a good deal Az, a set of 17's and a decent front brake could run you close to half of what they want for that KTM. From what i have seen the KTM, Husky, Yamaha, and Honda all seem comparable and the best rider wins which is nothing new.

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:10 pm

my son Sammy started off on a new '02 KTM 125. That thing was a little rocket. it had more power than my open bikes of the late seventies, even had more bottom end too!
after that we bought a new '04 YZ250 2 stroker. Sam didnt like watching guys unable to restart their 4 strokers after get offs and still preffered the sound of two strokers and the smell of premix. That bike hasnt gotten much use as the street bike bug bit him shortly after and he bought a new z1000. The yz sits with carbon and titanium bits all over, including gyt subframe. unfortunately it was the year before the aluminum frame. if i could find one of those cheap i'd have one feather weight 250.

as it is, he'd love to get into super moto but i dont believe he'd be competitive with a 250 2 stroker and we have other hobbies that make starting over with a four stroke cost prohibitive. so in the meantime the bike sits waiting for its occassional ride with his buddies. myself i cant help wondering how it would go with slicks! any 2 strokers out there?

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:41 am

Don't underestimate the potential of that 250 as a motard bike. I have a very close freind that builds 4 stroke motors for the MX bikes and he has a bad fast 426 ICE BIKE and he tells me that there is a stockish yz250 that pulls all the 4 strokes off the turns. They catch him on the other end, though. I don't know how easy or difficult it would be to ride on pavement. The big 4 strokes put the power down so nice with race tires on pavement. What about building a sportsman style bike with stock rim sizes just to get an idea of how it stacks up on the straights. That way if it didn't work you wouldn't have 2k in wheels and brakes. If it did work, he would be trying to sell a kidney to get 17's with slicks and big brakes. These bikes are so much fun.

Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:10 pm

check your PMs. i have many questions on how to empty my wallet.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:19 am

Thats pretty funny Larry, I have never had to ask somebudy how to spend my money, I must be a natural. Very Happy

Guest

Hey now! That hardly seems fair! Enquiring minds want to know how to spend Larry's money too!!! Laughing

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:13 pm

Lary's son is a recently ex MXer and they have an 06yz250 that is loaded with trick bits and they are considering motarding it so i can ride it in the 250 class of the Pikes Peak Hillclimb this year. Well part of the story is true, everything but the part of me riding it in the race to the clouds. i guess i will have to ride my own.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:53 pm

sorry guys. i was asking if there was a way to race a 250 2 stroker and be competitive. looks like theres a sportsmans class that would work with only a tire and gearing change to just get your feet wet. no doubt the best bet would still be to trade her in for a 450. the small weight savings on the 2 stroke wouldnt be that noticable on pavement but the lack of traction and low end torque certainly would be.

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:03 pm

I would not underestimate that 250.

Guest

Hey Maru... well I finally found my MX bike for the supermoto conversion Smile

05 crf250r! Sorry about the photo quality it's from my cell phone which is the best I can do since some freaking crack head broke into my house and stole my real camera Evil or Very Mad

...

Already ordered up handguards and pegsliders and looking for a set of sportsman tires to run until I find a deal on some 17s. I haven't been this excited about something in awhile Smile

The guy I went through for my re-fi races SM on the local circuit. He's been kind enough to field my questions and offered to help facilitate getting so practice time on one of the tracks.

Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:01 am

With the motard bike put away for the winter I have been developing a plan for more speed for next time out. I have added two teeth to the countershaft for a potential top speed of 115mph. I have also gone to a K and N style filter which will be used for pavement only with the Foam going back in for events involving dirt. I really want a slipper clutch but am also investigating a unit that ties the rear brake into the hydralic clutch. Either are intended to prevent wheelhop when downshifting during extreme braking. I also think the bike needs a stiffer rear spring but even without it the handling is fantastic. Currently the power peaks at 8500 rpm and the revlimiter shuts down the party at 10,400. While it is not a priority, the ultimate plan is for a ported head and carb along with a programable ignition. My engine guy thinks that we can pick up aboout 5 hp at peak and gain at least 10hp in the overev. I will try not to use this zone from 8500 to 10500 but with 10 extra horses here it will increase my options when it comes to gear selections.