\', Honda CB750/900/1100F SuperSport Website, \' - \', Dedicated to Honda SuperSport lovers past present and future., \'
  Login or Register
Modules
 
 
User Info
Last SeenLast Seen
Server TrafficServer Traffic
  • Total: 34,875,150
  • Today: 30,113
Server InfoServer Info
  • May 31, 2020
  • 06:56 pm PDT
 
 
Honda CB750/900/1100F SuperSport Website: SuperSport Forums


View next topic
View previous topic
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.cb1100f.net Forum Index -> General Chit Chat
Author Message
cBnOOBY
MB-5
MB-5



Joined: Jul 21, 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Pensacola, FL

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

After running out of gas twice- once because I forgot I was on reserve and once because Iím too stubborn to fill up when I still have a gallon left- I decided I could use a fuel gauge on my 900. Iím not a big fan of the float type gauges because they require a lot of work to instal and need modification of the tank typically so I decided to make my own sensor and controller unit that can just be tapped into the fuel line with a tee right under the petcock. I plan on mounting a small led indicator on the top of my triple tree to see the fuel level but I know different people might want a different gauge or mount. So my question for everyone is if you could add a fuel gauge to your bike, what kind of gauge would you prefer and where would you want it? Iím thinking about making a number of these and selling them because most options out there are pretty expensive or not that great. Iíve attached a few pictures of examples gauges. Iíve seen them mounted next to the primary gauge, in the tank, on the handlebars and sometimes down by the petcock before. Just not sure what the majority of people would prefer.

TL;DR- Iím making hydrostatic type fuel sensors and looking for input on what kind of gauges/mounts people would prefer on their custom builds.
 
View user's profile Send private message
tomk1960
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Nov 13, 2009
Posts: 4434
Location: Worcester, MA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I personally don't need a fuel gauge since I fill up anywhere between 50-80 miles into the tank; I pass by gas stations all the time, so it's easy. But more important, we have an electronics expert here in the forum that's currently working on a non-invasive fuel sender unit/gauge design. If it works out, it will be a fairly easy installation. So rather than reinventing what's presently being invented, you might want to hang in there a bit longer. I'll ping him and ask that he provide an update so we can all know where it stands.

Tom

_________________
www.tomscyclerecycling.com
Powder coating services, specializing in all F components as well as brake system restoration.
Dealer for Galfer, Spiegler, Apex, APE, 4-into-1, KOSO, Venhill, ProBoltUSA, and Cometic.
CB1100F's - multiple flavors 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Bucko
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Dec 15, 2003
Posts: 2691
Location: Vancouver BC

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:54 am Reply with quote Back to top

Popcorn
 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cBnOOBY
MB-5
MB-5



Joined: Jul 21, 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Pensacola, FL

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:46 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah I realize it isnít something that everyone needs but for me going on long rides out in the country it could really save my ass. Definitely would like to hear how the other project is going.
 
View user's profile Send private message
Tdem
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 1598
Location: Bear, DE 19701

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Isn't running out of gas like a right of passage? It teaches you to monitor your trip meter and take frequent breaks while riding. That and remembering to turn off the petcock when you park it. Get burned a couple times and you learn, forever. I have 2 bikes with fuel gauges, and they're accurate enough but i don't really use them. Learning to ride on the CBF it has become ingrained in me to reset the trip at each fuel stop, and keep an eye on my distance.

These are life lessons.

That being said, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from learning something new or designing something to help make our lives easier.
 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
PGSmick
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Posts: 2369
Location: Newton, MA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:59 am Reply with quote Back to top

I agree that the NEED for a fuel gauge may be vanishingly small, but it sure would be nifty. How about when you fill up the tank and then forget to turn the petcock off reserve? It can bite you in the ass a few days or weeks later.

So yeah, the challenge of a fuel gauge is that owing to the irregular shape of the tank, the height of the fuel in the tank does not bear a simple relationship to the volume of fuel in the tank. In order to get a sensor to work with an analog indicator like an actual gauge, you need to discover that relationship and build a complex, non-linear algorithm into whatever you are using to tell the indicator what reading to display. If you try to drive an analog instrument directly with a fuel level-based sensor your readings will be wildly inaccurate. This applies not only to sensors that would go inside the tank and have a float mechanism, but also to any sensor that is trying to read the pressure of the fuel caused by gravity. That pressure is also a function of the HEIGHT of the fuel above the sensor, and is not directly related to the VOLUME of the fuel that appears to be giving rise to the pressure. I may be missing something, but I think that's what the OP's design is doing. And if so, then I don't see how it would be accurate with any sort of analog gauge. (And if I am wrong here, PLEASE tell me!)

The sensor I have been working on uses a load cell contained in a replacement for the front rubber tank mounts. That sensor is effectively weighing the tank and its fuel. If it worked, it would be able to sense and report a full analog range of fuel volumes. On a recent ride, I actually had the thing working pretty well. It is not ready for primetime, however. It is extremely sensitive to jostling of the tank, it takes a certain level of care to install (although installation is really very simple), you have to be very careful not to let the throttle and clutch cables touch the tank and throw off the readings, and its reproducibility has much room for improvement. It really has a long way to go, but I think with suitable programming of the microcontroller, I would be able to get it to play.

However, it may well be the case that you don't really need a smooth curve describing at every moment how much fuel is in the tank. In fact, since my display of choice is a 10-segment bar-graph LED, that means I have already given up on a full analog display, and that means that all I really need is to collect 10 data points relating various fuel levels to volume. And if that's the case, then we don't need to weigh anything. We can simply take sample readings from a level-based sensor at ten points from full to empty and turn on the appropriate LEDs.

Even that might be overkill. We could use a tiny RGB LED to show 4 fuel levels as Blue, Green, Yellow and Red (like my voltmeter and oil temp displays do). So then you would need only 4 data points to map into your microcontroller and you would be able to see 1/4 tank intervals.

In short, once you have abandoned the need for full analog behavior, it becomes much more manageable to relate a fuel pressure or a fuel level to some representation of fuel volume.

Unfortunately, I have had to suspend all work on my project because the engine has come up lame, and I need to tend to that first. But I intend to return to it as the first project once as my main ride is back on his feet.

I would love to hear more about the in-line fuel sensor, CBNooby. Can you share? I'd be more than happy to go into excruciating detail with you about what I've learned so far at my end.

_________________
Peter.
1100 X 2 & 750
"Once you know how it's supposed to work, you can almost always figure out why it doesn't."
Gadgets: Fixed By Smicks 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
nathanhouse
Silver CB900F
Silver CB900F



Joined: Oct 05, 2008
Posts: 1432
Location: Dover, NH

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:15 pm Reply with quote Back to top

https://www.lskelectronics.com/fuelgaugeprouni

I'm probably going to be using this when the time comes however I won't have stock gauges.
 
View user's profile Send private message
PGSmick
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Posts: 2369
Location: Newton, MA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

nathanhouse wrote:


I'm probably going to be using this when the time comes however I won't have stock gauges.


As near as I can tell from looking at the Calibration procedure they give in their user manual, they will have you calibrate a setting at full and again at empty, and then they will interpolate all other readings between full and empty. And my guess is that they use a simple linear interpolation. I can't imagine how that could give you accurate readings using an analog gauge on an odd-shaped tank.

To avoid disappointment, I think you should question them closely before relying on it or committing to the 100 euro price tag. I'd love to hear what they say.

_________________
Peter.
1100 X 2 & 750
"Once you know how it's supposed to work, you can almost always figure out why it doesn't."
Gadgets: Fixed By Smicks 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bucko
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Dec 15, 2003
Posts: 2691
Location: Vancouver BC

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Looks similar to this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/FuelGaugePro1-universal-Float-free-motorcycle-fuel-gauge-meter-pressure-sensor/222736304812?hash=item33dc1e4aac:g:zqUAAOSwMQ1b5X7j

Image

Description suggests individual LED's can be level calibrated.

Fancier version: https://www.ebay.com/itm/FuelGaugePro2-universal-Float-free-motorcycle-fuel-gauge-meter-pressure-sensor-/223015647854?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true


Last edited by Bucko on Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:44 am; edited 2 times in total 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
nathanhouse
Silver CB900F
Silver CB900F



Joined: Oct 05, 2008
Posts: 1432
Location: Dover, NH

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

PGSmick wrote:
nathanhouse wrote:


I'm probably going to be using this when the time comes however I won't have stock gauges.


As near as I can tell from looking at the Calibration procedure they give in their user manual, they will have you calibrate a setting at full and again at empty, and then they will interpolate all other readings between full and empty. And my guess is that they use a simple linear interpolation. I can't imagine how that could give you accurate readings using an analog gauge on an odd-shaped tank.

To avoid disappointment, I think you should question them closely before relying on it or committing to the 100 euro price tag. I'd love to hear what they say.


It would be on a digital aftermarket gauge. It seems to me that every car I've ever driven for any length of time has a wierd drop somewhere on the gauge sweep. Stays full for a week then drops to empty in the next three days or something like that. . Im not super concerned with the accuracy throughout the entire range bc no matter what you end up doing you'll have to get used to how it operates.
A regular float doesn't know if the tank has 1 or 2 gallons in it just that it is in a particular part of it full travel, same as this sensor. I could be wrong. I still have a ways to go before I'm there so we'll see what happens.
 
View user's profile Send private message
cBnOOBY
MB-5
MB-5



Joined: Jul 21, 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Pensacola, FL

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:24 am Reply with quote Back to top

What Iím going after is much like lskís fuel gauge pro. I just couldnít understand the price tag. It took me $30 and about 4 hours to make a sensor that would calibrate to my tank better than it seems theirs could. Basically it reads the fuel height in the tank through a pressure probe.

Surprisingly A digital sensor can work with an analog gauge use a digital potentiometer to mimic a float type gauge. That said a digital gauge would probably be a better option. I know a couple of the pictures I posted are analog gauges, I just used them as examples of what might be a good design for the gauge. The more Iíve thought about it though, the more it makes sense to me to find a way to incorporate an led bar graph or a few ledís in a small arc somewhere around the handlebars or triple tree. That way the dash doesnít get cluttered with another large gauge.

As for the calibration, Iíve got a working version of my device that Iíve hard coded to read the level in the tank by pouring in a quart of fuel at a time and taking readings then interpolating. Iíd say itís probably accurate down to half a quart of fuel. Of course if you stay leaned into a corner for a decent amount of time it will throw off the reading but that will happen on any modern bike with a fuel gauge as well.
 
View user's profile Send private message
PGSmick
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Posts: 2369
Location: Newton, MA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

I now have completely abandoned my idea of weighing the tank. I can see that you have gotten around the odd-shaped tank problem using a fuel level sensor. If I understand you correctly, with your interpolation between calibrations, you must also have essentially an analog output. It would seem like the world is your oyster.

SO if I were in your position, I would be looking at the LSK setup as your design goal. Incorporate the features you think are worthwhile and then build it. They have some pretty slick features you might want to incorporate. Their means of programming using a magnet to activate and manipulate the menu and using the 10 segment display as the programming interface seems sheer genius to me. I'm not sure you need quite as many programmable features as the LSK unit and you might be able to manage programming with just a few external jumpers instead. But I would definitely include a light sensor to automatically dim the display at night. I also think that the compactness of the 10-segment LED display gives a lot of mounting flexibility. For even more flexibility, I would separate the display from the microprocessor package.

If you can do that, and make yourself whole for less than 114 Euros, I'm happy to be your first customer!

_________________
Peter.
1100 X 2 & 750
"Once you know how it's supposed to work, you can almost always figure out why it doesn't."
Gadgets: Fixed By Smicks 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cBnOOBY
MB-5
MB-5



Joined: Jul 21, 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Pensacola, FL

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Upon further thought Iíve come up with two different ideas for displaying the fuel level that are the least obtrusive I could think of and would work on a number of bikes regardless of the modifications done. Both rely on the use of leds which are individually controlled and dimmable.
1- 3D print a small clamp ring to go around 1Ē or 7/8Ē handlebars that will house a column of 5-8 ledís. Each led can be turned off as the level drops. And different color schemes are possible.
2- Use a single multicolor led built into the neck cap/hole at the top of the neck of the triple. This led will cycle through a range of preset colors as the fuel level decreases until it gets to red to show minimum fuel, maybe around half a gallon.

The sensor and control unit/sender package will be separate from the indicator they can be mounted hidden away behind the petcock. As for programming/calibration I havenít yet decided if I want to go with a simple push button or another scheme. Just need a way to keep things simple but still water tight.
 
View user's profile Send private message
techie66
Hawk
Hawk



Joined: May 28, 2009
Posts: 400
Location: Jacksonville, NC

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

I would be most interested in the sensor portion with no need for a display. Best case I could poll the microprocessor for a digital reading of fuel level, worst case I suppose reading an analog value would suffice.

_________________
Jacob
1983 CB1100F Blue
2010 HD XL1200X 48
My Mods Page 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kiwihonda004
Twinstar
Twinstar



Joined: Jul 14, 2012
Posts: 238
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:43 am Reply with quote Back to top

Didn't early kawasaki's have a digital fuel gauge with a bar graph indicator ?

_________________
P A Hyland 
View user's profile Send private message
DonR
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Feb 17, 2009
Posts: 2028
Location: Oz

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:53 am Reply with quote Back to top

PGSmick wrote:
nathanhouse wrote:


I'm probably going to be using this when the time comes however I won't have stock gauges.


As near as I can tell from looking at the Calibration procedure they give in their user manual, they will have you calibrate a setting at full and again at empty, and then they will interpolate all other readings between full and empty. And my guess is that they use a simple linear interpolation. I can't imagine how that could give you accurate readings using an analog gauge on an odd-shaped tank.


Itís based on fuel weight (pressure) so I imagine itíd be quite linear.
 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
techie66
Hawk
Hawk



Joined: May 28, 2009
Posts: 400
Location: Jacksonville, NC

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:14 pm Reply with quote Back to top

DonR wrote:
PGSmick wrote:
nathanhouse wrote:


I'm probably going to be using this when the time comes however I won't have stock gauges.


As near as I can tell from looking at the Calibration procedure they give in their user manual, they will have you calibrate a setting at full and again at empty, and then they will interpolate all other readings between full and empty. And my guess is that they use a simple linear interpolation. I can't imagine how that could give you accurate readings using an analog gauge on an odd-shaped tank.


Itís based on fuel weight (pressure) so I imagine itíd be quite linear.


PGSmick wrote:
That pressure is also a function of the HEIGHT of the fuel above the sensor, and is not directly related to the VOLUME of the fuel that appears to be giving rise to the pressure.

_________________
Jacob
1983 CB1100F Blue
2010 HD XL1200X 48
My Mods Page 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cBnOOBY
MB-5
MB-5



Joined: Jul 21, 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Pensacola, FL

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:38 pm Reply with quote Back to top

PGSmick wrote:
That pressure is also a function of the HEIGHT of the fuel above the sensor, and is not directly related to the VOLUME of the fuel that appears to be giving rise to the pressure.
[/quote]

Yeah the pressure and volume are not directly related which is the reason for calibrating for a specific tank and position of the sensor.

The LSK calibration is similar to the way that I do it. You tell the controller what empty is (basically fuel in the line but only up to the petcock and then pour in fuel a bit at a time calibrating each individual light to a certain fuel height. So their way of programming is entirely user defined. Not necessarily even linear. You could set the lights to all go off at the exact same pressure if you wanted. Either way this would be a quantized calibration with arbitrary points. Their linear gauges instead use linear interpolation but only allow inputting empty and full positions so it doesnít compensate for tank shape.
My calibration instead uses multi-point linear interpolation by pouring in a specific amount of fuel and calibrating each time more is poured in. This gives the possibility of having a full 10 bit range of outputs that can be used to accurately drive an analog gauge or a digital gauge with any number of lights/bars.
 
View user's profile Send private message
cBnOOBY
MB-5
MB-5



Joined: Jul 21, 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Pensacola, FL

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

An update on my progress- Iíve gone with a cap that fits in the top of my bikeís neck. A single LED changes color as the fuel level changes. Wiring is simple because the light only needs one data wire. Iíve got auto dimming working but still have yet to put the sensor in the cap. Thereís a full menu to choose different coloring schemes with different numbers of levels, set calibration points and choose the length of time it averages over. Iím just using a push button at this point to navigate through the settings. Iíve still got some work to do on the calibration and programming side but I should have everything working together on the bike within the next few weeks. Also youíll notice from my pics that I have a cbr600 front end so obviously Iíll have to tweak the dimensions of the cap slightly to fit the original neck or any other aftermarket necks but this should be fairly quick and painless to do in cad given the dimensions.
 
View user's profile Send private message
nathanhouse
Silver CB900F
Silver CB900F



Joined: Oct 05, 2008
Posts: 1432
Location: Dover, NH

PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Looking really good! I'll be interested when you get the final product done. Is your sensor internal or external of the tank right now?
 
View user's profile Send private message
cBnOOBY
MB-5
MB-5



Joined: Jul 21, 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Pensacola, FL

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

nathanhouse wrote:
Looking really good! I'll be interested when you get the final product done. Is your sensor internal or external of the tank right now?

The sensor unit is external. I have a tee between the petcock and fuel filter that goes to the sensor. Thereís plenty of room under the tank to hide it away so you canít even tell anything is there.
 
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:       
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.cb1100f.net Forum Index -> General Chit Chat

View next topic
View previous topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001-2008 phpBB Group
:: Theme & Graphics by Daz :: Ported for PHP-Nuke by nukemods.com ::
All times are GMT
 
Page Generation: 0.36 Seconds

:: fisubice phpbb2 style by Daz :: PHP-Nuke theme by www.nukemods.com ::
:: fisubice Theme Recoded To 100% W3C CSS & HTML 4.01 Transitional & XHTML 1.0 Transitional Compliance by RavenNuke™ TEAM ::

:: W3C CSS Compliance Validation :: W3C HTML 4.01 Transitional Compliance Validation :: W3C XHTML 1.0 Transitional Compliance Validation ::