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DonR
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:34 am Reply with quote Back to top

A big dent to the program. Donít think Iíll bother this year.

http://www.bikesportnews.com/news/news-detail/roger-winfield-sets-record-straight-over-2018-pi-classic
 
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bikeboy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:08 am Reply with quote Back to top

That's disappointing.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:33 am Reply with quote Back to top

Thatís a real shame, what ever happened to consultation between interested groups.
 
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smurdoch
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I thought i had read a couple days ago there was a scrap about changing fuel and the big costs associated with doing so.
Now it is about revenue-sharing?
 
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muskrat
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:56 pm Reply with quote Back to top

BUGGA. Once again money gets in the road.
Cheers

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Captain
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The rule changes that were brought in at Roger Winfield's (British Team Principal) insistence burnt a lot of people and created a rift that was somewhat ignored or down played by the media and those less engaged.
As a result many rank and file entrants (myself included) boycotted the event as there was not a level playing field and all the issues that result from that. None of which were conducive to the long term future of the event IMO and as I have stated previously.............Watch what happens when the "big Names" stop coming because they will (stop) when the deal is not to their liking ............. And now it's Deja Vu

The question now is if those that boycotted and made the financial base possible to do the above in the first instance.........are willing to return ???

Captain

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1981CB
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

Captain wrote:
The rule changes that were brought in at Roger Winfield's (British Team Principal) insistence burnt a lot of people and created a rift that was somewhat ignored or down played by the media and those less engaged.

Captain


Just goes to show, there is always two sides to every story.

Still it would be nice for those of us that have difficulties making it to the track to be able to at least watch it on the box.

Mark.
 
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muskrat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I was hoping to get down there this year to watch (never been to PI).
Especially to see Captains bike go round. Not much point if the big boys arn't playing.
Cheers

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smurdoch
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

muskrat wrote:
I was hoping to get down there this year to watch (never been to PI).
Especially to see Captains bike go round. Not much point if the big boys arn't playing.
Cheers


With any racing there is always a fine balance between seeing good, close racing and the "big boys" showing up and crushing the rest of the field.
 
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petrat
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

One of my sources said that during a discussion with Roger at PI 2018, he made it known that he would not be backing team UK at 2019, and that quite possibly Jeremy McWilliams would take over provided he (JW) could get the financial backing to continue racing in the IC. Time certainly is running out.

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DonR
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:02 am Reply with quote Back to top

I for one hope it continues in whatever shape or form.

https://www.halfofmylife.com/2018/09/04/can-the-island-classic-be-saved/
 
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DonR
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:44 am Reply with quote Back to top

Team USA named with some serous rider and machine talent.

http://www.mcnews.com.au/island-classic-2019-international-challenge-team-usa/
 
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Captain
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:11 am Reply with quote Back to top

Keep talking it up......because its past itís peak.

Captain

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DonR
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:46 am Reply with quote Back to top

Captain wrote:
Keep talking it up......because its past itís peak.

Captain


Thatís uncalled for. Itís a great event thatís been going for over 25 years. Lots of great racers are still participating. As the saying goes, if youíve got nothing good to say...
 
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nlovie
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:11 am Reply with quote Back to top

as an enthusiastic spectator - when I see a grid of bikes that just don't represent history - something is fundamentally wrong
forsure, the era of the end of the big CC inline 4 didn't get a reasonable period on track - welcome the 750's - but letting them now dominate isn't bringing back history - its changing it

i'm dam't if I can recall an FJ1100 dominating a grid - anywhere - so what does this represent ?

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Captain
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:31 am Reply with quote Back to top

It is called for and Iíve been saying so since they screwed it up with the rule changes specifically to appease the British. Now they arenít even coming and the event has had serious problems and credibility issues that the magazines and PR have mostly ignored. Now the fat lady is starting to sing and is desperate for US participation. This not going to last.

Captain

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DonR
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Captain wrote:
It is called for and Iíve been saying so since they screwed it up with the rule changes specifically to appease the British. Now they arenít even coming and the event has had serious problems and credibility issues that the magazines and PR have mostly ignored. Now the fat lady is starting to sing and is desperate for US participation. This not going to last.

Captain


I'm surprised that you're calling it's demise. Sounds like sour grapes because you don't want to play with the big boys. Don't know why because I'm sure you could handle it easily with your bike. God knows team Kiwi needs a boost! Laughing The other Hondas running don't have your HP and they can run at the pointy end. Those that have seen Roger Winfield's Team UK investment over the last few years couldn't fail to realise how big it is and no reasonable person would be surprised that ultimately it couldn't be sustained forever no matter what reasons are quoted. Sure, all events wax and wane over time especially nowadays with the world economy the way it is. However, 26 years and still going strong is testament to the stature of the event particularly one that continues to attract current and retired national and world championship winning riders and TT stars. There're aren't too many places in our neck of the woods where you see and talk to riders like Peter Hickman, Jeremy McWilliams, John McGuiness, Davo Johnson, Cam Donald, Troy Corser, Colin Edwards, Pridmore, Zemke and many more world class riders and on one grid. The event will even be televised this year (albeit a delayed telecast), not bad for a big club day!

The timing of the event ensures great weather and is the off season for all the current racers and a holiday for the others. It's a great carnival atmosphere that thousands of competitors and spectators alike all enjoy. Everyone now understands that the International Classic races are feature events. They don't fit into any one sanctioning body's rule book. How can it across all those countries competing? It's impossible. So an amalgam of rules were drafted and away we go, like it or lump it. There are plenty of supporting events run under the Australian period rules that others can compete in and they do. Have a look at the grids, they're packed. I doubt very much that this event will disappear anytime soon.
 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:32 pm Reply with quote Back to top

My flights are booked ..... excited to see what all the hype is about Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

This is a good thing. As an amateur racer, hired guns ruined an event that I thought I wanted to go to. People who carry the freight throughout the year at our own vintage events only to have hired guns show up on bikes they don't own is the reason for the demise. These are events for the racer as much as the spectator and it probably doesn't bring any measurable additional people through the gate to see ex professional racers to race specifically built from parts bikes from an era they never raced in.

As an AHRMA racer where there has been a Phillip Island class created to feed that series, I'm glad it's failing. I don't want professionals showing up and racing bikes and chasing away other prospective amateurs. It was a slippery slope and the Phillip island guys went all in on it and it cost them in the end.
 
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Captain
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:32 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Iíve said it many times and Iíll say it again, we will not enter or participate whilst the rules allow 84 Yamaha engines. The event was started by a Kiwi (International Challenge feature) and ran very successfully under country of origin rules (NZ Pre 82 & Aus P5). If it returns to those original rules we will participate again. Until then we have chosen to go elsewhere like many others.
Why did this all occur ??? The PI management and promotion got all excited about an offer of a British package of names and bikes but the cost was a rule change to get them to come. That has run it course and the future is not as bright as you appear to believe.

Captain

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damage
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

G'day all,
I think that the Island Classic will continue to have a bright future regardless of the participation of Team UK or not. Like Brent I don't like the inclusion of the FJ 11/1200 Yamaha powered bikes,they were,in my opinion, an effort by the poms to keep up with our locally grown big bore Suzuki GSX 1100's. The FJ engined bikes do not comply with our local P5 rules and are in effect P6 bikes (dating being determined by the date of manufacture of major components such as frames & engines) and I feel that this is not within the spirit of the event.
This event will always be a spectacular event to attend either as a spectator or competitor but the event has also grown too big for the number of classes being run, it doesn't take much of an incident to hold up proceedings before races start getting shortened or cancelled and it is a long way to go there from Western Australia (we have to travel further than the Kiwis and we don't get any of their concessions) to have races shortened. And then there is the costs to compete there.
Once I'm able to afford to return to PI I will because as I said in the beginning it's such a great event to go to and with or without the poms there will always be exciting racing there.
Chris.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:29 am Reply with quote Back to top

I can't seem to recall hearing of an FJ qualifying, running or winning a race.......

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:54 am Reply with quote Back to top

don't know - but I also suspect the use of the FJ motor opens the doors to an available much more modern engine package given development of the FJ over the yrs - i.e. - are these 84yr FJ1100's or are they 96yr 1200's - or do they share parts even with the 1300

would be good to see an open 84yr to **** class sitting along side the traditional classic - let the FJ take on the air/oil gxxers, the gpz's and Honda's big V4 - and let this class take on the 1st of the decent 750's - a few 500cc strokers

enable the fast guys from the earlier classics to take on this class - as a choice, not as given

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DonR
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:06 am Reply with quote Back to top

An excellent and thorough three part analysis of the International Island Classic that dispels a few myths. Written by Kiwi racer Alistair Wilton and reproduced below with his permission.

Part 1 My two cents worth, for whatever that is worth on the Island Classic.

Being NZDÖ.that may not be much! But have a read. No doubt not everyone will agree with me, but I spent a good amount of time looking at old programmes and the like to get the facts. Plus I have "been there" with much of the Iinternational Challenge.

By way of background, Iíve done 17 Island Classics in a row, every year from 2002 to 2018, from NZ. I can with all confidence say that I am the international rider with the most attendances, ever. Not bad for essentially a club racer with a few toys. Iím not a name rider, so I know what it is like getting down and dirty with all the prep, shipping bikes, transport, pay all my own bills to go racing. My estimate is that in that time I have spent $100k of my own money doing the Island Classic. I have also been closely involved in making the Kiwi team get there for many years, though have been able to step back in recent years. And no, Iíve never been paid to ride there! We do get some support from Phillip Island with shipping costs, but in reality, that is not a large cost on their budget. Iíve also for many years had to pay entry fees, so sorry to disappoint, but for many of us international riders, itís no free ride. Yes some riders do get free entry and will no doubt be paid appearance money. Iíve also at various times run meetings, set budgets etc and play with numbers for a job, so I apologise if my view is different from many others on some of this as I tend to take a pretty pragmatic view.
Itís been interesting reading a lot of the commentary here about the event and also over the years. so I went digging through much of the data I have, as I tend to hoard info.

Entry fee costs: This was an interesting one. I found 9 different years entry forms from 2003-2019. Yes, entry fees have increased, but so has the price of beer, Big Macs, salaries and fuel. 2003 was $150 and 2019 is $400. The entry fee has stayed essentially unchanged in the last 4 years at $395/$400. On average it has increased $15 a year during this period 2002 to 2019. There was a big leap sometime between 2010 and 2013, but I think that may align with the inclusion of the Friday night function becoming a much bigger event, given ticket prices for that are $125 or like and it started about that time (though sort of compulsory as you canít enter without paying for it, but as itís sold out and packed, I guess people like it?). You could argue the actual entry fee is more like still under $300. Obviously, there are many sundry costs on top, some optional (ie extra class, garage/marquee) some not (MA levies, etc).
During this time period, (2004) the circuit changed hands, and no doubt Linfox want a set minimum ROI. Our local circuit changed hands here in Auckland a few years ago and out entry fee costs took a hit. 2 bikes , garage etc would see a 1 day meeting at nearly $400 for me.

It also gets mooted that local Aussie riders fund the costs of the Internationals through higher entry fees. The International Challenge has been running since 2005 and in that time, yes entry fees have increased, but apart from the step change mentioned above with the Friday night function, I see no overt increase which would indicate this cost being passed on.

Additionally, one canít look at just the expenses like this, without seeing the income side. Of which none of us get to see, the total income, expenditure or trade offs made! Entry fees are massively dwarfed by gate takings. I would estimate 3-4 times. Also, if you have a name rider (or a few), what would you expect the spectator count to do? IncreaseÖ.. Okay, using some basic assumptions : if you said PI spends $50k on paying some name riders to appear & Say a weekend pass is $80 (Fri-Sunday). How many additional punters does it take to cover that $50k? Answer: 625. Whatís the chances that more than 625 people come to see the name ridersÖ. Pretty high. Therefore, does the name riders actually cause the entry fee to be contained lower than it should as the these riders actually provide a net upside to the budget?

Part 2: ďThe good old days/The event will die/riders are not coming backĒ

For this one I looked at Rider numbers. Looking ay 2018, being the most recent year I have ridden, vs 2002 (the first year I attended) actual ďbikeĒ entries are 150 more in 2018 vs 2002. Yes they have been higher., 2013 was 474 and 2016 essentially equal at 471. 2017 was quite a lot lower (<400>350cc and 28 entrants. 2018 was >500cc and 90 entrants. Jeff Smith of AHMRA has a very valid theory about older bikes: ďthe 50 year ruleĒ. Once a bike becomes 50 years old, those that have a nostalgic view, direct involvement, riders, mechanics , or those that always wanted one and never could are usually about 70 years old. Unfortunately some start dying, some take a slower life and stop racing and going to events. The next generation of people donít have the same linkage to the bikes and thus not the interest. They have bikes closer to their era they want to see or ride. For me, P3 500ís are ďniceĒ, but donít mean much to me, but a TZ250/350/500/750 etc means a lot. It also means that over time, things move with the masses. This can be directly seen all over in the changing mix of class entrants. P1-3 starting to decline, P4/5 is now ďmatureĒ and will probably in 10 years start to decline and p6 has taken off and these riders are replacing the older classes. This churn is natural. In 1979 when the NZCMRR was taking off, a 1962 Manx was 17 years old. In 1995 a GS1000S was 16 years old. In 2019 the oldest R1 is 19 years old and the first Fireblade is 27!

Big Money and Eligibility in P5 and IC: If you are not riding in The IC challenge, does it matter what they spend and what the rules are; you are not having to ride against them!! To be clear, The International Challenge has never been straight P5 from day one in 2005. It was formulated by James Clark in the UK and Craig Smith in NZ putting a basic pan together to try and get James and some UK riders to Aus and PI agreed and set it up so as to NOT upset p5. The NZ rules are very similar to Aussie (though at that time, a little more restrictive in brakes and forks, but a 5 inch rear rim and we allowed methanol) The UK rider had bigger rims, brakes, forks, 8 valve motors, no slicks, and no wets. The NZ riders usually built our bikes to fit P5 (Ie dropped the meth if used) . The UK bikes motors were okay (usually GS or zeddie based), but rim widths (5.5 rear) brakes (4 pots), forks etc put them outside P5, hence the IC was created as a separate class to P5. IC would never mix with the core P5 and never has. Over time, these rules have changed. I initially was very unhappy with the FJ/XJR motors. I then saw the IC from a different light. Once I got my head around the fact all p5 bikes are eligible, it is NOT P5 and is itís own little separate game with some hard core racing and very quick riders, it made more sense.

Interestingly the equal fastest bike in a straight line this year was a pukka p5 bikeÖ.like the old analogy a fast bike is usually a fast rider, still rings true. The first 16 qualifiers in IC this year were either hired guns, ex World champions, National Champions, ex or current BSB/WSBK/ MotoGP / IOM riders. Then there was a 3 second gap to the first ďprivateerĒ (Craig Ditchburn who on his TZ750 matched McWilliamsís straight line speed). But as I said, most of us donít have to race against them in P5, they are not p5 bikes and they have their own rule set, sort P5.5!

Part 3 ďIC pushing other classes out/ reducing my racingĒ:

The same classes are always catered for. Whether they run, or who they may share with is dependent upon # of entrants. IC was 4 extra races over the weekend. But by far the biggest influence has been the rise of P5 open and the need for two races (Major/Minor). But the biggest by far influence of late has actually been the rise of P6 and a full suite of capacity classes. (500 New Era, Formula 1300, 250 New Era and New Era production, New Era F 750) They alone account for 16 extra races over the weekend.

Looking at Total races. In 2004, there were 38 races/parades. 2005 The first year of IC 40. 2018 56 races. IC is 4, so outside of practice and qualifying, there are 14 more events that are NOT IC squeezed into the programme to account for the changing population and bike classes. (and they will have practice/qualifying needs also). PI has had to sacrifice Friday practice and the second qualifier to fit everything in. Yes Total track time has been reduced as a result, but it is incorrect to say it the IC class. The introduction of IC in 2005, didnít decrease the practice and qualifying count that everyone got.

P5 ďthe Big Money classĒ: You will always get a massive range of bike quality and spend, no denying that. Hell, even in P3 500 you can spend how much to buy a new Manx?! My TZ750 owes me $70k and that is the nature of the beast and what I needed to spend to fit my bike desires. But Iíll get spanked by a $5k Zeddie with a good rider! But, donít forget, whatever anyone wants to spend, there is a set of technical rules that limits what you can do even if you have the gold plated option. I also subscribe to the magpie theory. Magpies are attracted to shiny shit. Doesnít matter how much shiny shit you have, if it is not set upÖ.

And as above donít cloud P5 and what people spend, with IC challenge, they are not the same and for most of us, donít relate or impact us.

So: PI and Island Classic. You will never please everyone! Is it perfect? No. Do PI Ops try very hard? Yes. There is a massive range of classes across a very tight programme. That in itself is always going to cause high blood pressure. This year will be interesting. NO UK team, but also NO Avgas. No Avgas didnít drive the UK team from coming. Roger for years has been saying ďthis is my last yearĒ. Dave Crussell is top bloke and he stepping up with the US team massively. I think the stories of the Island Classic Ēis dyingĒ is somewhat premature. Fergus and the team will continue to evolve it to make sure it remains profitable (and less face it, events need to be to continue) and attractive to spectators and riders. You will never get 100% agreement or acceptance of how it is, but as long as they balance right it will continue to do well.
 
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damage
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:39 am Reply with quote Back to top

Very well written & an interesting read at that,I think a lot of people hadn't really thought about the IC being a separate class,(myself included). There some very valid points made but the bottom line is that for all people who race there it will always an exciting meeting regardless of which big names are or aren't there.

Chris.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Team Kiwi gets a boost.

http://www.mcnews.com.au/triple-bsb-champ-john-reynolds-turns-kiwi-for-island-classic/
 
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:15 pm Reply with quote Back to top

DonR wrote:
Team Kiwi gets a boost.

http://www.mcnews.com.au/triple-bsb-champ-john-reynolds-turns-kiwi-for-island-classic/


Interesting news. I know that they "almost" had Peter Hickman riding for them this year .....

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:45 am Reply with quote Back to top

He was racing in NZ for the Suzuki Series last December so no doubt someone from the team was in his ear.
 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:46 am Reply with quote Back to top

DonR wrote:
He was racing in NZ for the Suzuki Series last December so no doubt someone from the team was in his ear.


Yup Carl Cox .... but when he heard that he couldn't run a competitive oiler GSXR engine in an XR69 chassis, he became uninterested, apparently.

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Vapor Blasting Services

Dealer for Wossner, Cometic, OHLINS, OZ Racing, Dymag, Marchesini, SUDCO, JB-Power, APE, Spiegler, Setrab, KOSO,
Brembo, Lightech, Speedcell, Racefit, Braketech, Ferodo Pads, Wood 
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cntrhub
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Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Posts: 1650
Location: Kansas City, KA.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:05 am Reply with quote Back to top

I can only speculate and say it's not the money the brits are crying about. They are more scared of the current competition signing up. Where they dominating the event all this time with that trick frame/yammadog entry? I hear someone showed up last year running some XR69, basically the same setup, showed them up speed trap wise. If that 's the case, why show up, right? It was only a matter of time and I bet they saw the light, meaning. JMO
 
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