Carbon fiber lidded tail project

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:18 pm

As everyone knows, the plastic parts on our bikes are susceptible to damage from the sun, crashing, and just plain drying out and cracking in normal use. It’s been a problem that has been nagging at me for quite a while.

As I get ready for a restoration and upgrade of my 750, I became interested in getting a lidded tail, but they are expensive, and hard to get, and, even when you get one, they often need new decals and paint. It’s easy to spend $400 on a lidded tail.
Where I live in Southern California, there are a lot of people and businesses that need work. Since we have an active ocean community, I thought I’d see if I could find a carbon fiber fabricator to make a high quality tail for my bike.

They took a lidded tail that I got from Japan, made a mold off of it, and created a prototype for me to play with.
Here are some pictures:

http://www.microdatabase.com/images/CF-Tail%20021.JPG

http://www.microdatabase.com/images/CF-Tail%20022.JPG

http://www.microdatabase.com/images/CF-Tail%20023.JPG

http://www.microdatabase.com/images/CF-Tail%20024.JPG

I’m getting in hinges and a latch soon, as well as some Teflon to make mounts for the infill panel that surrounds the taillight. If I’m successful with this, I will have a lidded tail that is stronger than the original part.

I’m having a lot of fun doing this, and thought you all would enjoy seeing it too.

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:51 pm

Thats extremely interesting, also its great to know that the skills are still available locally to undertake this quality work .

foxyj. Very Happy

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:54 pm

That is very cool Mitch! They would definately be stronger, resistant to UV and they look nice. You could do a whole bike with the carbonfiber look and put on the graphics from an '82 black 900F. Can you color the resin when making up the carbon fiber? I know nothing about the process, could you explain how it is done?

Cheers!
Chris

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 8:49 pm

Here's the pics:

Looks really cool!

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 9:07 pm

You people are going to cost me alot of money.... Grumble, grumble....

That is awesome.

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 9:40 pm

Awesome Mitch - I want one.

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:25 am

CDN1100F wrote:

That is very cool Mitch! They would definately be stronger, resistant to UV and they look nice. You could do a whole bike with the carbonfiber look and put on the graphics from an '82 black 900F. Can you color the resin when making up the carbon fiber? I know nothing about the process, could you explain how it is done?

Cheers!
Chris

Yes, you can mix up colored resins. You need to measure color into the resin accurately to ensure consistency throughout the parts.

The process is similar to fiberglass, you need an original part, and then you have to clean it up before molding. Decals, paint lines, etc, have to be removed, else they will end up being molded in every part that you make. Molds are typically made from CF and/or fiberglass, and they are built very thick and sturdy so the parts coming out of them will not be warped.

CF also adds the complication of needing to be laid in so the fibers are straight, unlike 'glass where everything is covered in gelcoat. And there are a number of different weaves. This one is (I think) a 2x2 twill weave.

I think of CF parts as being in two groups. Structural, which requires a autoclave to apply pressure and heat during curing, and makes very, very strong parts, and decorative, which uses vaccum bagging to apply even pressure throughout the part. Structural CF is insanely expensive, and the aerospace community has 'claves you can walk in. My part uses a vaccum bag to apply pressure, but no heat, which is less expensive, but it still requires knowledge to do right. The guys that did this part are doing an entire Nissan Z body in CF.

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:33 am

Much of the V-22 Osprey (and other aircraft) are composites, too.

This would be a cool addition to Fr8trains F-117 themed 1100F!

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:08 am

That is very inspiring! Would it not be possible to make other parts out of carbon, ie the hallowed wombat!

Cheers,

Simon

Twinstar Joined: Aug 03, 2010 Posts: 258 Location: se pa

Thanks Rick. I've been watching this. I sure would like to have one. Regular tail w/o lid, type. How about pricing & availability?

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:59 pm

cliffiec wrote:

Here's the pics:

Good job!

Maybe just a little small though. Laughing

That tail does look cool man! Any plans to do the rest of the body parts?

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:09 pm

Damn i wish i had money to spend on stuff like this :/

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:04 pm

that tail is sick!!! i want one Smile

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:23 am

CB900SS wrote:

cliffiec wrote:

Here's the pics:

Good job!

Maybe just a little small though. Laughing

That tail does look cool man! Any plans to do the rest of the body parts?

I know, I guess I could have put them in my Image Shack and re-sized, just too lazy, I guess...

[edit] OK, so I resized them. I see this thread hanging around for a while. They do look better!

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:21 pm

From the pictures, this project looks terrific.

Suggestion..........I think the best part to reproduce in this manner would be the 1100F fuse cover.

1) it is black on stockers, so a carbon weave works for every 1100, to accentuate the features of the bike.

2) originals often broke at the mounting tabs.

3) I would be a cool part that is highly visible to the owner when using the bike.

Imagine an F bike with Ducati like carbon bodywork replacing all the plastic wearing a decal set for a black bike on it? Trick?

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:43 pm

I don't have a 1100F fuse cover, but if it can be fitted to other models, it might be another piece that could be done.

Bear in mind that getting the outside of the part is only about 40% of the problem. If the underside is complex, then we have to make a double mold to get both sides right. Technically, it's not a problem, but financially, it doubles the mold cost, and means that more interest in purchasing the part has to be lined up to break even. I did the tail because I'm crazy. But, if, repeat if I can get it right, then perhaps I can get more made to sell.

The tail still needs me to get the gasked for the edge of the lid done, the latch and hinge for the door, and the attachments for the infill panel. I have a plan for all these pieces, so stay tuned. This is a labor of love for me, so I'm having fun, but it's still a lot of work.

Stay tuned!

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Awesome work on it so far. My compliments to the composites shop that did the work. It looks like they know what they are doing. Almost ANYTHING can be made, it just depends howmuch $ and time you want to put into it.

We made carbon fiber uprights for the FSAE car which took forever to get right. We've also been working on making custom CF wheels in house which has also been a trial.

Keep it up and you may have yourself a brand new niche market in parts for these old bikes. beerchug

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:50 am

An 1100F fairing would be desirable produced in carbon fiber.

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:12 pm

Here's a update on the project. First, I passed on the positive comments to the CF fabricator. Since making these relies on a talented worker, I want to keep them motivated to do a great job.

Next, I got in touch with some commercial sources for the hinge and latch for the lid. I'm getting some samples from the vendors for keyed latches as well as two different types of hinges that I think will fit.

Once those parts are in, I'll do a test fitment to confirm dimensions. Then will order some teflon plastic for the hinge mount, latch striker plate, and mounts for the rear infill panel.

So, things are moving along. Thank you for all the positive comments.

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:29 pm

Nice work on the tail. I would love to see some of the plastic side panels made, with the tabs and all. I bet you could sell a load of them.
James

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:20 pm

JMZG wrote:

Nice work on the tail. I would love to see some of the plastic side panels made, with the tabs and all. I bet you could sell a load of them.
James

I have looked into making side panels, and they are on the radar, as soon as I get the tail project to the point where it needs to be.

Regarding the pins on the side panels, I had a thread on this issue a little while ago about a problem that I had with one of my broken pins.

http://www.cb1100f.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=55046

Long story short, I'm not a fan of the existing pin system. It serves well for new panels, but as they age and get brittle, the pins break, or worse, cause the panel to crack. Also, carbon fibre is not a good material to make pins like the ones our bikes require. Too many sharp bends need to be made.

However, my magnet solution is working well on my bike, so if I do the side panels, that will be a solution that will be tested.

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:45 pm

If you can locate them properly, you can always use something like this McMaster part: (Can't get a direct link) it's part #97590A551

They are available in several lengths and you could probably just an almuminum knob or somethign threaded on.

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:59 pm

mitcht wrote:

Long story short, I'm not a fan of the existing pin system. It serves well for new panels, but as they age and get brittle, the pins break, or worse, cause the panel to crack. Also, carbon fibre is not a good material to make pins like the ones our bikes require. Too many sharp bends need to be made.

Carbon Fiber sidepanels that use a Dzus fastener would be trick . That's what Honda used on the race bikes like the 82 Spencer bike.

I think the Maier reproduction plastic side panels are molded to use some type of fastening system like that.

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:40 pm

The magnet attachment idea is an elegant solution.
Very nice work on the CF tail!

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:39 am

I got a selection of sample latches this week, and found a good fit for the application

This part is unique as it uses a shape for the key, rather than the sort of keys we are used to. Upside is that it's more durable, better quality, and is made of stainless steel. Not having a traditional key means no path for water to enter the tail. It even comes with a thin gasket for between the latch and the cover!

The recessed triangle makes it theft resistant, but I wouldn't put any real valuables in there anyway. I have less expensive options on the table, but none as good quality as this one. It's a real jewel.

I also tested out the gasket material for the door frame. the lid fits without rattling, and is flush with the surface of the tail.

The hinge for the lid is here, and I'm seeing how best to fit it. I also drilled the seat mounting holes on the part.

This lid has the indent for the stock Honda latch assembly. While this latch fits in the indent, I want to see if I can remove the 'teardrop' shape and make it a round indent. If not, I'll just make the surface of the tail flat. The indent is a wax catcher anyway.

I'll keep you informed as things happen. Once we have the hinge done, I can do the mounting points for the infill panel, and we're ready to go!

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:37 pm

OK, got the last little bits solved, waiting for some teflon from McMaster-Carr and then it will be finished.

Hopefully, will have it done the weekend of July 4th.

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:06 am

A brilliant idea and a lovely piece of work.

I like the thougt and effort on the quality and functionality of the lock but did have a giggle at this:

MitchT wrote:

The recessed triangle makes it theft resistant, but I wouldn't put any real valuables in there anyway.

I think the value of the tail itself is going to be much more than anything I'd normally keep on a motorbike!!