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TonyCR
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: Apr 11, 2006
Posts: 1644
Location: costa rica, san jose

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

well, my baby left me on the side of the road, and no, it's not a country song,

i was coming down from one of the local mountains here, had an 18 wheeler a couple of hundred yards
behind using his compression brakes, kind of noisy, when my bike turn off, so i pushed the buttom, and
no start, so i went to second or third gear, and the bike keep going down like it was neutral, so thank God, i was able
to pull off to the side on a small curve enough away from the traffic.
our roads doesn't have much room to pull over. it was around 2 pm, so it was bright and clear
Seems like the starter spins and nothing happens. i called my dad and he came with his pick up truck, and now she is at
his house, i am on the way there to pick her up

any ideas? we are starting the best time for riding here, i hope this doesn.t take too looong,

Thanks guys, you are always awsome, thanks in advance
 
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sport
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 3104
Location: Orrington, Maine

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Glad you found a spot to get off the road Tony. Sounds like the starter clutch, as far as the starter spinning and not engaging. I am a bit more worried about the fact that in gear you went cruising down the hill as if in neutral!

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Sean

1982 CB900F (currently rebuilding engine)
2001 RC51 (Tatical Nuke!)
2007 GMC 2500 Duramax (work horse)
2008 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon (Wife's Ride)
2001 Audi S4 (Beater car) 
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BluesMan
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Jun 26, 2003
Posts: 2794
Location: Cincinnati, Oh.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

When did you notice it had stopped running, ie: tach went to zero, oil light came on ect. Anything like that?? Confused
 
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powerroy
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: Jul 04, 2004
Posts: 1696
Location: Arizona, Apache Junction

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

you may have a broken cam to crank timing chain
 
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TonyCR
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: Apr 11, 2006
Posts: 1644
Location: costa rica, san jose

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

powerroy wrote:
you may have a broken cam to crank timing chain


i'll know pretty soon, but i think you are correct. the engine is down now. i don't have much time
this week, as we will have an art fair starting wednesday. thanks,
i'll try to post some pics
 
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Pointdiver
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 3201
Location: Cape Cod, MA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

powerroy wrote:
you may have a broken cam to crank timing chain


Shocked Yikes, hope its a starter clutch issue, that's an easy one.
Tony did you try to bump start it? (throw it 2nd while rolling).
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Odds are it is timing chain. Common explanation running along and suddenly no power.

If it was running the starter clutch was not involved.

The going down hill part in lower gears and acting like it was in neutral is the clue. As the engine was going out of time it bent a lot of valves,thus no compression braking. Spinning by the electric will act like it is not connected to anything.
 
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Tdem
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 1600
Location: Bear, DE 19701

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

when sonic explains it, it makes sense and also makes me sad Sad
 
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txscbf1100
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 794
Location: Yoakum, Tx.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:10 am Reply with quote Back to top

Tdem wrote:
when sonic explains it, it makes sense and also makes me sad Sad


Yup, me too. Sad Keep us posted tony. Good luck

David
 
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cliffiec
Friend of the Board
Friend of the Board



Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 5321
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:23 am Reply with quote Back to top

Good Luck, Tony, hope you get her running soon!
 
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TonyCR
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: Apr 11, 2006
Posts: 1644
Location: costa rica, san jose

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:41 am Reply with quote Back to top

sonicrete wrote:
Odds are it is timing chain. Common explanation running along and suddenly no power.

If it was running the starter clutch was not involved.

The going down hill part in lower gears and acting like it was in neutral is the clue. As the engine was going out of time it bent a lot of valves,thus no compression braking. Spinning by the electric will act like it is not connected to anything.


you can guess who was right, the engine is down and this is what i found, i have been so busy, i haven't had that much chance to
work on her, tomorrow the rest will be apart, and i will have more questions,

thanks everybody,

Image
Image

Image
Image
 
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Pointdiver
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Aug 14, 2005
Posts: 3201
Location: Cape Cod, MA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Tony, thats a tough one to see. Crying or Very sad
Just thinking out loud here, would it still be possible to replace the chain without splitting the cases? I think not but grasping at straws. Rolling Eyes
 
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ssdan
Silver CB900F
Silver CB900F



Joined: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 1423
Location: Waco Texas

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:30 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Ouch! Bummer! Crying or Very sad
 
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powerroy
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: Jul 04, 2004
Posts: 1696
Location: Arizona, Apache Junction

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Bummer Tony, I'll bet you have some bent valves in there also
 
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txscbf1100
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 794
Location: Yoakum, Tx.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Dammit, that sucks tony Sad . Good thing is theres lots of fine folks on this site ready to advise you of what to do next.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll have her back on the road in no time.

David
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Will probably do no good to just replace the chain.

More than likely there is a shit load of bent valves as well as broken valve guides from the valves being hit. It also usually damages the valve seats as well from the stem hitting.

It was on a race bike with high lift cams,but the valves were bent so bad it took a big pair of Channel Locks to bend them striaght just to have travel to get the valve cotters out.

The best description of the carnage is large nails in a piece of wood and teaching someone how to drive nails,bent all kind of directions.
 
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tymeshare
Hawk
Hawk



Joined: Apr 10, 2008
Posts: 270
Location: St. Louis, Mo.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:19 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Jesus Tony..that sux!..

That first pic is what i have nightmares about..

How many miles did that engine have?..

Please say something like 50,xxx...Please!..
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

As I said before,I drag raced for YEARS and never broke one. This is/was heavy springs and aggressive cams.

Then I built a motor and bought brand new chain and tensionners that lasted 6 passes.

I think that chain was made "cheaper" than the used ones in my motors,but the picture shows what I would call a decent made chain,ie big pins.

You need to stay right on keeping the chain tensioned,ie no chain noise. The lost motion is what "shocks" the chain. In Tony's case throttle off going down hill puts the load reverse to nomal,but if there is "play" it gets a "running start" to break.

The use of these chains to me is the "silent" part to make the motor more EPA quiet. I do not think they are any where near as good a design as a roller chain. The silent chain wears by a hardened link cutting directly on a pin,where a roller chain pin is protected inside the bushing and loads over a length. In this case the oil can get there to cushion the wear.

I use the example of autos. Most use a silent chain,but hot rods and trucks like Chrysler use a roller chain in the same motor on a passenger car would be silent chain.

As far as I am concerned I wish later engines with the cam drive on the end would just use a belt. At least you could easily replace it and no cam timing variation like I see with that stretchy silent chain piece of shit. A roller with bearings inside live for 70,000 miles easy on a car vs the slide on a rubber deal all the bikes with slient chains have.
 
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woodsrider250
Twinstar
Twinstar



Joined: Oct 31, 2008
Posts: 241
Location: Fredneck, MD

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

AMen to that....and then use the 'good' belts on top of it. SOmething like a 20mmx8mm pitch toothed belt would be awesome.
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:19 pm Reply with quote Back to top

You have no choice on tensionner using a belt,it must be a roller with a bearing inside.

That piece of rubber deals is just asking to fail,not to mention it just "saws" into it.

You just cannot believe how much these silent chains "stretch",ie wears at the pins. It changes the cam timing by a giant amount.

I just have to laugh about later bikes like the touring Kawasaki with automatic variable cam timing. I will still bet the chain variation is more than the movement the automatic deal will do.

The bottom line question is the pins are probably a "case" hardeneing so after a certain wear will go through the hard layer then just cut them like butter. Just not a good design no real good way for any lube to be held there because each "link" is so narrow.
 
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tymeshare
Hawk
Hawk



Joined: Apr 10, 2008
Posts: 270
Location: St. Louis, Mo.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Soni...

Did the endurance racers of yor' use these "silent" chains?..

I would like nothing more then to run a "roller" in my bikes and if anyone would have used them I figure they would have..

But i'm guess'n they didn't because they tore down and rebuilt after every race...

Because of that the "silent" junk was probably good enuff..
 
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bmcdonau
Silver CB900F
Silver CB900F



Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Posts: 1267
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry to see that Tony, I hope you get it back on the road soon. I just ordered some Honda parts and your four tail light screws were in the order. They should be in by January. PM me your address and I'll send them to you.
 
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Blainethemono
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Mar 03, 2004
Posts: 3278
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Start shopping for a new head....... With a lil bit of luck you will find a fully loaded one for $200 and wont have to pay the piper to rebuild the entire head.

Rivet kit for the timing chain, so you dont have to pull the barrels or split the case. Then contact our buddy Brock, for a STOCK head gasket....

http://stores.completegasketset.com/StoreFront.bok

Tell him you are from the board for a 10% discount

Stout has done this procedure @ least once and the newly riveted timing chain hasnt broken yet...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&refid=store&item=300255688212&category=35572&viewitem=

Image
 
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TomStrasser
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 12129
Location: Metro Detroiters I live at Square lake & Woodward to everone else Bloomfield Hills (Detroit) Mic

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:40 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Tony I broke the same chaina couple of years ago.

I was luck only bent 2 valves. That was the extent of the damage to the top end.

I heard break and did not try to restart though.

Splitting the case and reassembly it is a hell of a lot easier than taking the head off (your going to have too though) the stock chain is available from David Silver Spares.

Good luck

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Blainethemono
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Mar 03, 2004
Posts: 3278
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Splitting the case and reassembly it is a hell of a lot easier than taking the head off


Actually, if the chain is still around the crank, (bent valves sometimes have a tendency to stop the crank in place before the chain slips completely off), it is relatively easy to tie the new chain to the broken chain and thread it around the crank by carefully rotating it as you feed the chain down the valley. With the head off, you can inspect the cam chain guides and also get better access to the broken chain in an attempt to thread the new one thru.

Still, one has to remove the engine either way, and unbolt the CRANK if you want to do it Toms way.... Ya really want to do that?? Shocked Rolling Eyes

A LOT simpler then splitting the case and then trying to get everything back together w/o leaking.... With potentially bent valves you are going to have to readjust the valve clearance anyway....new head or old..

However, if you use the riveted chain method, & split the cases, the crank does not have to be lifted, so this method may prove to be the easiest, all things considered.

R&R the head is a BJ..... and you never have to touch the crank...

But since Stout has done this before, I would consult the Master before proceeding. He accepts donations. (usually Single Malt Scotch) Twisted Evil
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The valve damage could also damage the piston,ie put a crack in it.

It depends on where in the valve lift it was when it broke. If it was full open it can get a good wack.

In my case it also broke the valve buckets and the 1100 type cam chain tensioner.

You just cannot tell until you get the head off.

It is a good idea to keep the old chain remains around the crank so it can be used to feed in a new chain,regardless.

I believe this was the rational behind the two chains deal. According to the list on the other thread,the main chain is the same as several other models. One was a 600 so considering the stroke length it means that bike had the chain around all the cams and back to the crank. If I am not wrong Honda figured that two separate chains and tensionners was better,maybe for the oscillation cam to cam. Regardless the front of the main chain still carried all the valve loads,one chain or two. All it did was make complexity and took up room that could have been used for "bore center" and allow for an engine that could be nearer to 1400 cc max than as is at 1200.

Maybe the chain maker Morse was in on this making a market for the product. Similar to Bridgestone and the odd size 16" tire used on the 900RR model front. A lot of companies make roller chain but I think Morse is the only one making these type chains.
 
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