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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:56 pm Reply with quote Back to top

sillygoose wrote:
They don't ask to measure there but I would think an open is expected. You measure between the black and white wires which is the resistance of the brushes and the coil.


Doesn't it say this:

***The Stator should have between 0.4 Ω and 0.5 Ω between any pair of yellow wires and no continuity between any yellow wire and ground. This is the least likely charging component to fail, but it does happen. The continuity and short tests are usually definitive for these though. Some rewound stators have been found to be higher in resistance, closer to 1 ohm between any pair of yellows, and still work. ***

So what does "no continuity between any yellow wire and ground," mean? Does it not mean any yellow wire and the black wire? Is the black wire not the ground? Does ground mean the frame of the bike in this case?

I will try the brushes ideas that you provided, thanks for that. Can't get to it until tomorrow.

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genesound
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:49 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The black wire is 12v switched power on a Honda wiring loom. Green is ground. Only on the big 5-6ga wire from the battery to the motor/frame is the black the ground wire.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

jacksondee wrote:
So what does "no continuity between any yellow wire and ground," mean? Does it not mean any yellow wire and the black wire? Is the black wire not the ground? Does ground mean the frame of the bike in this case?

If the alternator is bolted up it would be the yellow wires to the frame (or battery - terminal). If bench testing the stator it would be the yellow wire to the stator frame.

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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:11 am Reply with quote Back to top

How do you measure the brushes? What does it mean to measure them to their connector?

The brush the runs on the outer ring of the rotor is more worn than the inside brush, but both appear to have plenty of life before their wear marks...

That said, are the wear marks close to where the brushes rest in their housing?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:36 am Reply with quote Back to top

Brushes appear normal, the outer ring rotates at a faster speed because it does a larger distance which is why the outer brush wears faster than the inner brush.

Sorry the wires on the stator cable for the brushes are the white and black wires, if you measure the resistance from the white wire to the black wire you’re measuring the resistance of the brushes contacting the rotor and the resistance of the rotor itself (which is why it should be about 10 to 12 ohms total). Of course the cover has to be mounted for that measurement to work.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 am Reply with quote Back to top

Brushes don't always rest against the copper rings when the rotor is stopped. There are small bits of fried carbon that hold them away and don't conduct well. Brushes need for the copper to be turning and passing current, then these bits of carbon are hot and fly away as sparks and many vaporize.

To "measure the brushes to the connector", would mean measure from the brush face to the wire connector, to make sure the brush is connecting well.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

This test is listed in the service manual, I stuck my ohmmeter in the back of the connector (black to white wire) and sure enough it reads between 10-12Ω. Makes for a quick test of the excitation side without having to remove the alternator cover and is easy to do when you have charging system problems.

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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Gotcha, I haf already done this and got 10ohms.

Perhaps I need to do the stator ground test correctly.

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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:09 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Still working on this. I feel like half the summer is gone and I havent ridden yet.

Key on, motor off, black and white wire 10.6 V

And now the stator is measuring 4V yellow to yellow at 3000RPM

And it fluctuates between 0.3 and 1.2 yellow wires to ground, key off

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1100russ
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Have you checked the resistance from the yellow wires to the stator cover?

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genesound
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

1100russ wrote:
Have you checked the resistance from the yellow wires to the stator cover?


When you check the stator for winding resistance or short to ground, it must be unplugged from the rectifier.

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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Can i just unplug the wiring harness clip? Or is this where bypassing the reg/rec with the paperclip comes in?

I am concerned about the 4V at 3000rpm. Also annoyed because i got 10V when i tested it a few weeks ago.

Are we not concerned about the rotor only showing 10.6V? The instructions say that reading should be close to the battery voltage.

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genesound
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

jacksondee wrote:
genesound wrote:

When you check the stator for winding resistance or short to ground, it must be unplugged from the rectifier.

Can i just unplug the wiring harness clip? Or is this where bypassing the reg/rec with the paperclip comes in?


To check the resistance of the stator? - Why would that possibly have anything to do with bypassing the regulator? It's just a basic static (not running) component (stator) check.

Unplug the 5 pin R/R connector when you measure the resistance of the stator and check it for short to ground. The regulator must not be plugged in to the stator when checking the stator resistances.

jacksondee wrote:
I am concerned about the 4V at 3000rpm. Also annoyed because i got 10V when i tested it a few weeks ago.

Are we not concerned about the rotor only showing 10.6V? The instructions say that reading should be close to the battery voltage.


A flakey, loose, intermittent black wire connection somewhere would explain those issues and also why the new regulator didn't work.

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sillygoose
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

jacksondee wrote:
Key on, motor off, black and white wire 10.6 V

If I am not mistaken the service manual test for this is a resistance measurement (10-12Ω). The black wire to ground should be very close to the battery voltage, the white wire to ground should be small (one voltage drop, 0.6V or so).

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genesound
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:49 pm Reply with quote Back to top

sillygoose wrote:
jacksondee wrote:
Key on, motor off, black and white wire 10.6 V

If I am not mistaken the service manual test for this is a resistance measurement (10-12Ω).

Oh yes, now I found it, it's not in the 750 book, but it's in the 900, 1000, and 1100 books in a chart, now I recall it. I've never really been satisfied with that data. When measuring resistance through static brushes on slip rings, I've found readings ranging from almost the slip ring resistance all the way to open, on a working rotor and brushes. There is just no way to really guarantee that reading when the brushes aren't energized and moving.

sillygoose wrote:
The black wire to ground should be very close to the battery voltage, the white wire to ground should be small (one voltage drop, 0.6V or so).

Yes, if the black wire has proper conductance, ie low resistance to the battery+. Typically, there is some drop there from resistance along the way though, often caused right inside the keyswitch.

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Last edited by genesound on Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total 
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Just noticed you did the resistance test and got 10 ohms, if the rotor resistance is in spec I would not worry about the rotor and brushes.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:08 pm Reply with quote Back to top

But most recently Jackson wasn't measuring resistance of the black vs. white, he's measuring the voltage out of the regulator with the key on and motor not running as 10.6V, which is low. Meaning the black wire voltage is probably low, or possibly the regulator is not working, however we know that the OEM regulator is passing current to the rotor, because it made 15.1 volts a bit ago... So there was power to the black wire then, but it was probably a bit low to make the charging output high.

He's using my troubleshooting guide available here:
http://www.cb750c.com/publicdocs/charging_system/genesound_charging_system.html


jacksondee wrote:
Still working on this. I feel like half the summer is gone and I havent ridden yet.

Key on, motor off, black and white wire 10.6 V

And now the stator is measuring 4V yellow to yellow at 3000RPM

And it fluctuates between 0.3 and 1.2 yellow wires to ground, key off

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Last edited by genesound on Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:27 pm; edited 3 times in total 
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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I dod yellow wires to a clean spot on the frame and did get readings. I hadnt unplugged the wiring harness though. Ill do that tonight.

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genesound
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:15 pm Reply with quote Back to top

jacksondee wrote:
I dod yellow wires to a clean spot on the frame and did get readings. I hadnt unplugged the wiring harness though. Ill do that tonight.


Yes, it must be unplugged to measure if the winding is shorted to ground, or even the stator winding resistance check. The book says you don't need to remove stator (from the cover or the motor). But it does need to be unplugged. And they do show it being measured unplugged. I know, it's not entirely clear...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

jacksondee wrote:
I dod yellow wires to a clean spot on the frame and did get readings. I hadnt unplugged the wiring harness though. Ill do that tonight.


I would read it to the stator cover itself. There is a gasket in between stator cover amd cases. Probably overkill on my part but the cover is where the stator is going to short to. Just went through this (huh gene? lol). Your symptoms sound alot like mine. First time I did stator short test I tested to frame and I got open, second time I found it was shorted to cover.

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genesound
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
I would read it to the stator cover itself. There is a gasket in between stator cover amd cases. Probably overkill on my part but the cover is where the stator is going to short to. Just went through this ...


Good point. Where it actually shorts to is generally the iron core of the stator. The farther away you test it, the more chance there is for error due to bad connection, like the gasket or thread corrosion or something.

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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:13 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Alright, wiring clip unplugged. Yellow wire to stator cover. One of the yellow wires shows nothing, the other two bounce around between .4 and .5 ohms.

Thats the red lead of the multimeter to the yellow wires, and the black lead of the multimeter to the stator cover.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:32 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Stator is bad
 
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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Good thing I already replaced the rotor and the r/r...

Im an idiot...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
One of the yellow wires shows nothing, the other two bounce around between .4 and .5 ohms.


Any yellow to the case should show open, OL, or INF or however your meter shows it. None of them should show 0 or any other value.

Luckysox wrote:
Stator is bad


Yeppers.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:24 pm Reply with quote Back to top

jacksondee wrote:
Good thing I already replaced the rotor and the r/r...

Im an idiot...

In recognition of you being the official forum idiot this week, I will send you a used stator for the price of shipping.

PM me your address if you wish to accept your award.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:30 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Awesome! Smile

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jacksondee
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Ivr received the stator from the gentleman named Goose. Thanks again.

Might as well be another problem, right? The two screws that hold down the little housing for the brishes are fused on there. PB blaster, my huge screwdriver, a high torque drill with a phillips tip on the end.... i got zero movement out of the screws but the screwdriver slipped a few times and i need to collect myself before i strip them....

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I think those are JIS screws. A phillips head will phuck them up every time. Patience, the proper tool, and controlled force should do the trick

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sillygoose
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Are these the screws holding the brush holder to your alternator cover?

Regardless I recommend an impact driver with the largest, best fitting bit you can find, JIS is preferred but I use a P2 or P3 impact bit all the time on stubborn screws. Something about the impact action seems to get them moving again. A light tap of impact in the tighten direction can also be useful.

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