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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:56 pm |
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sillygoose wrote: |
They don't ask to measure there but I would think an open is expected. You measure between the black and white wires which is the resistance of the brushes and the coil.
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Doesn't it say this:
***The Stator should have between 0.4 Ω and 0.5 Ω between any pair of yellow wires and no continuity between any yellow wire and ground. This is the least likely charging component to fail, but it does happen. The continuity and short tests are usually definitive for these though. Some rewound stators have been found to be higher in resistance, closer to 1 ohm between any pair of yellows, and still work. ***
So what does "no continuity between any yellow wire and ground," mean? Does it not mean any yellow wire and the black wire? Is the black wire not the ground? Does ground mean the frame of the bike in this case?
I will try the brushes ideas that you provided, thanks for that. Can't get to it until tomorrow. |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:49 pm |
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The black wire is 12v switched power on a Honda wiring loom. Green is ground. Only on the big 5-6ga wire from the battery to the motor/frame is the black the ground wire. |
_________________
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sillygoose
CB1100F
Joined: Oct 18, 2012
Posts: 2567
Location: Skaneateles, NY
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Posted:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:34 pm |
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jacksondee wrote: |
So what does "no continuity between any yellow wire and ground," mean? Does it not mean any yellow wire and the black wire? Is the black wire not the ground? Does ground mean the frame of the bike in this case? |
If the alternator is bolted up it would be the yellow wires to the frame (or battery - terminal). If bench testing the stator it would be the yellow wire to the stator frame. |
_________________ 1983 CB1100F
1981 CB985F |
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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:11 am |
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How do you measure the brushes? What does it mean to measure them to their connector?
The brush the runs on the outer ring of the rotor is more worn than the inside brush, but both appear to have plenty of life before their wear marks...
That said, are the wear marks close to where the brushes rest in their housing? |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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sillygoose
CB1100F
Joined: Oct 18, 2012
Posts: 2567
Location: Skaneateles, NY
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Posted:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:36 am |
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Brushes appear normal, the outer ring rotates at a faster speed because it does a larger distance which is why the outer brush wears faster than the inner brush.
Sorry the wires on the stator cable for the brushes are the white and black wires, if you measure the resistance from the white wire to the black wire you’re measuring the resistance of the brushes contacting the rotor and the resistance of the rotor itself (which is why it should be about 10 to 12 ohms total). Of course the cover has to be mounted for that measurement to work. |
_________________ 1983 CB1100F
1981 CB985F |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 am |
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Brushes don't always rest against the copper rings when the rotor is stopped. There are small bits of fried carbon that hold them away and don't conduct well. Brushes need for the copper to be turning and passing current, then these bits of carbon are hot and fly away as sparks and many vaporize.
To "measure the brushes to the connector", would mean measure from the brush face to the wire connector, to make sure the brush is connecting well. |
_________________
We don\'t see things as they are
we see things as we are
Viton Valve Stem Seals
12.9 Cam Holder Bolts
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sillygoose
CB1100F
Joined: Oct 18, 2012
Posts: 2567
Location: Skaneateles, NY
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Posted:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:21 pm |
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This test is listed in the service manual, I stuck my ohmmeter in the back of the connector (black to white wire) and sure enough it reads between 10-12Ω. Makes for a quick test of the excitation side without having to remove the alternator cover and is easy to do when you have charging system problems.
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_________________ 1983 CB1100F
1981 CB985F |
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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:43 pm |
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Gotcha, I haf already done this and got 10ohms.
Perhaps I need to do the stator ground test correctly. |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:09 pm |
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Still working on this. I feel like half the summer is gone and I havent ridden yet.
Key on, motor off, black and white wire 10.6 V
And now the stator is measuring 4V yellow to yellow at 3000RPM
And it fluctuates between 0.3 and 1.2 yellow wires to ground, key off |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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1100russ
CB1100F
Joined: May 17, 2010
Posts: 2982
Location: williamsburg, ohio
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Posted:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:37 pm |
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Have you checked the resistance from the yellow wires to the stator cover? |
_________________ CB1100F The Hot Rod
CB985F The Track Bike
ST1100 Commuter Bike
XR100 Teaching Bike
Ducati 750 SS Track Bike
CB360 Little Honda |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:02 pm |
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1100russ wrote: |
Have you checked the resistance from the yellow wires to the stator cover? |
When you check the stator for winding resistance or short to ground, it must be unplugged from the rectifier. |
_________________
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we see things as we are
Viton Valve Stem Seals
12.9 Cam Holder Bolts
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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:41 pm |
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Can i just unplug the wiring harness clip? Or is this where bypassing the reg/rec with the paperclip comes in?
I am concerned about the 4V at 3000rpm. Also annoyed because i got 10V when i tested it a few weeks ago.
Are we not concerned about the rotor only showing 10.6V? The instructions say that reading should be close to the battery voltage. |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:01 pm |
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jacksondee wrote: |
genesound wrote: |
When you check the stator for winding resistance or short to ground, it must be unplugged from the rectifier. |
Can i just unplug the wiring harness clip? Or is this where bypassing the reg/rec with the paperclip comes in? |
To check the resistance of the stator? - Why would that possibly have anything to do with bypassing the regulator? It's just a basic static (not running) component (stator) check.
Unplug the 5 pin R/R connector when you measure the resistance of the stator and check it for short to ground. The regulator must not be plugged in to the stator when checking the stator resistances.
jacksondee wrote: |
I am concerned about the 4V at 3000rpm. Also annoyed because i got 10V when i tested it a few weeks ago.
Are we not concerned about the rotor only showing 10.6V? The instructions say that reading should be close to the battery voltage. |
A flakey, loose, intermittent black wire connection somewhere would explain those issues and also why the new regulator didn't work. |
_________________
We don\'t see things as they are
we see things as we are
Viton Valve Stem Seals
12.9 Cam Holder Bolts
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sillygoose
CB1100F
Joined: Oct 18, 2012
Posts: 2567
Location: Skaneateles, NY
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Posted:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:07 pm |
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jacksondee wrote: |
Key on, motor off, black and white wire 10.6 V |
If I am not mistaken the service manual test for this is a resistance measurement (10-12Ω). The black wire to ground should be very close to the battery voltage, the white wire to ground should be small (one voltage drop, 0.6V or so). |
_________________ 1983 CB1100F
1981 CB985F |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:49 pm |
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sillygoose wrote: |
jacksondee wrote: |
Key on, motor off, black and white wire 10.6 V |
If I am not mistaken the service manual test for this is a resistance measurement (10-12Ω). |
Oh yes, now I found it, it's not in the 750 book, but it's in the 900, 1000, and 1100 books in a chart, now I recall it. I've never really been satisfied with that data. When measuring resistance through static brushes on slip rings, I've found readings ranging from almost the slip ring resistance all the way to open, on a working rotor and brushes. There is just no way to really guarantee that reading when the brushes aren't energized and moving.
sillygoose wrote: |
The black wire to ground should be very close to the battery voltage, the white wire to ground should be small (one voltage drop, 0.6V or so). |
Yes, if the black wire has proper conductance, ie low resistance to the battery+. Typically, there is some drop there from resistance along the way though, often caused right inside the keyswitch. |
_________________
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we see things as we are
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Last edited by genesound on Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sillygoose
CB1100F
Joined: Oct 18, 2012
Posts: 2567
Location: Skaneateles, NY
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Posted:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:01 pm |
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Just noticed you did the resistance test and got 10 ohms, if the rotor resistance is in spec I would not worry about the rotor and brushes. |
_________________ 1983 CB1100F
1981 CB985F |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:08 pm |
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But most recently Jackson wasn't measuring resistance of the black vs. white, he's measuring the voltage out of the regulator with the key on and motor not running as 10.6V, which is low. Meaning the black wire voltage is probably low, or possibly the regulator is not working, however we know that the OEM regulator is passing current to the rotor, because it made 15.1 volts a bit ago... So there was power to the black wire then, but it was probably a bit low to make the charging output high.
He's using my troubleshooting guide available here:
http://www.cb750c.com/publicdocs/charging_system/genesound_charging_system.html
jacksondee wrote: |
Still working on this. I feel like half the summer is gone and I havent ridden yet.
Key on, motor off, black and white wire 10.6 V
And now the stator is measuring 4V yellow to yellow at 3000RPM
And it fluctuates between 0.3 and 1.2 yellow wires to ground, key off |
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_________________
We don\'t see things as they are
we see things as we are
Viton Valve Stem Seals
12.9 Cam Holder Bolts
Last edited by genesound on Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:27 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:10 pm |
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I dod yellow wires to a clean spot on the frame and did get readings. I hadnt unplugged the wiring harness though. Ill do that tonight. |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:15 pm |
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jacksondee wrote: |
I dod yellow wires to a clean spot on the frame and did get readings. I hadnt unplugged the wiring harness though. Ill do that tonight. |
Yes, it must be unplugged to measure if the winding is shorted to ground, or even the stator winding resistance check. The book says you don't need to remove stator (from the cover or the motor). But it does need to be unplugged. And they do show it being measured unplugged. I know, it's not entirely clear...
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_________________
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1100russ
CB1100F
Joined: May 17, 2010
Posts: 2982
Location: williamsburg, ohio
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Posted:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:06 pm |
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jacksondee wrote: |
I dod yellow wires to a clean spot on the frame and did get readings. I hadnt unplugged the wiring harness though. Ill do that tonight. |
I would read it to the stator cover itself. There is a gasket in between stator cover amd cases. Probably overkill on my part but the cover is where the stator is going to short to. Just went through this (huh gene? lol). Your symptoms sound alot like mine. First time I did stator short test I tested to frame and I got open, second time I found it was shorted to cover. |
_________________ CB1100F The Hot Rod
CB985F The Track Bike
ST1100 Commuter Bike
XR100 Teaching Bike
Ducati 750 SS Track Bike
CB360 Little Honda |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:17 pm |
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Quote: |
I would read it to the stator cover itself. There is a gasket in between stator cover amd cases. Probably overkill on my part but the cover is where the stator is going to short to. Just went through this ... |
Good point. Where it actually shorts to is generally the iron core of the stator. The farther away you test it, the more chance there is for error due to bad connection, like the gasket or thread corrosion or something. |
_________________
We don\'t see things as they are
we see things as we are
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12.9 Cam Holder Bolts
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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:13 pm |
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Alright, wiring clip unplugged. Yellow wire to stator cover. One of the yellow wires shows nothing, the other two bounce around between .4 and .5 ohms.
Thats the red lead of the multimeter to the yellow wires, and the black lead of the multimeter to the stator cover. |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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Luckysox
CB1100F
Joined: May 13, 2005
Posts: 3249
Location: NE OHIO
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Posted:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:32 pm |
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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:55 pm |
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Good thing I already replaced the rotor and the r/r...
Im an idiot... |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:01 pm |
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Quote: |
One of the yellow wires shows nothing, the other two bounce around between .4 and .5 ohms. |
Any yellow to the case should show open, OL, or INF or however your meter shows it. None of them should show 0 or any other value.
Luckysox wrote: |
Stator is bad |
Yeppers. |
_________________
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we see things as we are
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sillygoose
CB1100F
Joined: Oct 18, 2012
Posts: 2567
Location: Skaneateles, NY
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Posted:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:24 pm |
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jacksondee wrote: |
Good thing I already replaced the rotor and the r/r...
Im an idiot... |
In recognition of you being the official forum idiot this week, I will send you a used stator for the price of shipping.
PM me your address if you wish to accept your award. |
_________________ 1983 CB1100F
1981 CB985F |
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11926
Location: Studio City, California
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Posted:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:30 pm |
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jacksondee
Hawk
Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Chicago
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Posted:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:45 pm |
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Ivr received the stator from the gentleman named Goose. Thanks again.
Might as well be another problem, right? The two screws that hold down the little housing for the brishes are fused on there. PB blaster, my huge screwdriver, a high torque drill with a phillips tip on the end.... i got zero movement out of the screws but the screwdriver slipped a few times and i need to collect myself before i strip them.... |
_________________ 1981 CB750F
2003 GSX-R750 (track bike) |
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cliffiec
Friend of the Board
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 5321
Location: Central Maine
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Posted:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:18 pm |
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I think those are JIS screws. A phillips head will phuck them up every time. Patience, the proper tool, and controlled force should do the trick |
_________________ 1982 CB 985F
1982 CB 900F (the Animal)
1982 CB 900F (the beast)
Silence is the best reply to a Fool!
Ever notice that people who think they know everything never shut up? |
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sillygoose
CB1100F
Joined: Oct 18, 2012
Posts: 2567
Location: Skaneateles, NY
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Posted:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:35 pm |
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Are these the screws holding the brush holder to your alternator cover?
Regardless I recommend an impact driver with the largest, best fitting bit you can find, JIS is preferred but I use a P2 or P3 impact bit all the time on stubborn screws. Something about the impact action seems to get them moving again. A light tap of impact in the tighten direction can also be useful. |
_________________ 1983 CB1100F
1981 CB985F |
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