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toddk
CB1100F
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 2286
Location: Saratoga Springs, New York

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

No BS, just dyno charts, that would be rear wheel!

Toddk

p.s. check your bearings, crack your bleeders Very Happy
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

www.amadragbike.com/horsepower.asp

Uses trap speed and weight to calculate or Hp to calculate ET and speed. Plug and chug.

Now the bad news. You can flat POUR money into these and build as big as you can with the best head work you can and 150 HP is about it.

I built lots of these and they all ET about the same. Mine would always out trap speed other Hondas before the rest of the world got smart and quit using them. Dyno wise same story around 150 HP at the wheel. This was done at the Brute HP Shootout at Daytona in 92 and different engines at Atlanta in 98.

The computer program and my results verify each other.

I also built turbo charged version as well. Same story,same boost and displacement will show the Honda down on power. NA version did 150 HP where the parts used should be nearer 200 HP. Same boost on other bikes can do 350+ and the Honda did 250Hp.

They plain do not respond very much to Hop-up. You can only go max size at 1252cc,with 1187cc(74mm) or 1220cc (75mm) the stonger solution,ie the cylinder wall gets very thin at the bigger sizes. Cam wise slows the bike down at large durations,so you are cam limited as well.

I have ran around 10 flat using 1063cc engine and only went 9.60 with every part you can use and 1187cc max compression.

To put this in perspective new dead stock 600's will put more power to the wheel and flat run quicker/faster. The stock 600 record was like 9.50@141.
 
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toddk
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 2286
Location: Saratoga Springs, New York

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I was thinking a real world "F" bike you should be very happy anything over 115.

I don't think I can launch well enough to get an accurate HP from the charts. I generally worry about breaking in that situation.

What was your launch technique? Was it the same for most the F motors or did it vary motor to motor?

Toddk
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:46 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Launch is only rider abuse,it has NOTHING to do with the trap speed.

As long as you get close to full throttle early and keep it there the trap speed does not vary more than a couple mph.

This is what people do not understand,HP is trap speed. The 600 record I quoted was on a stock engine,foot shift,no wheelie bar STREET bike. The light weight is one thing but doing more than 140 trap speed took power to do it.

If you run the program using a stock bike,my 1100F would run around 115 to 117 trap speed and say 750 lbs,ie 550 bike and 200 rider comes out to around 92 HP at the wheel. These programs make it nice since you can then estimate the improvement if you substitute a lighter rider/make the bike lighter or how much power it takes to make a certain gain.

Really the time I did the HP shootout and led it all week,a guy showed up with a beautiful CBX. We were talking and he was saying how much work he had in it,it made like 78 HP. He at some point ask me who I was and I said the guy leading this contest with like 150 Hp.

You realize HP is not constant. It is dependent on corrected altitude. Certain air conditions called "mine shaft" or racing in a mine shaft shows altitude much lower than measured. This is why an engine makes more power at say Atco,Houston,ie sea level than at say 1000 ft where I live in Ohio. You can still get a "good air" condition in Ohio but shit at a sea level race and the Ohio conditions have better "corrected altitude".

Regardless of the track if the corrected altitude is the same number,the HP,jetting,etc will be the same. This is what you tune with,either a new generation weather station or an old air density gage to determine where you are. The corrected altitude also includes humidity and other things.
 
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Larry
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Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 3862
Location: Maynardville TN

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I have 135 RWHP and the dyno runs to prove it. Street bike with CR carbs, properly degreed cams, 1123 kit, Dyna Ignition, Cobra SS Exhaust. A few F owners have ridden the bike at the Honda Hoot or when visiting down here in Florida and can attest to its power.

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f4fast
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 24693
Location: Long Island,N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Larry wrote:
I have 135 RWHP and the dyno runs to prove it. Street bike with CR carbs, properly degreed cams, 1123 kit, Dyna Ignition, Cobra SS Exhaust. A few F owners have ridden the bike at the Honda Hoot or when visiting down here in Florida and can attest to its power.


Larry, More info? Size Carbs? What Cam? Shim above bucket?

Is Prop Degree + 5 degree diff intake to exhaust?



I think this is a thread is a good, interesting idea. ..... Sonic's sobering /mood killing first response aside.

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bracemaker
Hawk
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Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Posts: 428
Location: Howland, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Larry wrote:
I have 135 RWHP and the dyno runs to prove it. Street bike with CR carbs, properly degreed cams, 1123 kit, Dyna Ignition, Cobra SS Exhaust. A few F owners have ridden the bike at the Honda Hoot or when visiting down here in Florida and can attest to its power.



I would say that that is amazing, you must have serious headwork to achieve that number with 1123cc's

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Larry
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:03 am Reply with quote Back to top

CR-33 carbs, stock cams properly degreed by using Sonicretes instructions, 5 degrees different. My bad, I just looked at the Dyno sheet again. It is 125.91 before I added the SS Cobra exhaust system and the Dyna 2000 ignition. That should be worth 4 or 5 over the V&H Megaphone and stock ignition that was there but NOT 9.
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stoutblock
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Joined: Jun 22, 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:27 am Reply with quote Back to top

125hp is fairly easy. Smooth bores, pipe, 1123cc, and stronger coils. 135 street hp is not so easy. FCRs, port work, bigger valves, and bigger cams. Don't think you can get a street motor over 135hp. High compression, racing fuel, etc...
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:29 am Reply with quote Back to top

I will say this again.

Big cams will slow the bike down. I have a set I can send you so you can see for yourself.

250 degrees at .040" is close to max. .375" lift is close to max. I ran quite quick using stock 1100 cams or #4 Andrews which is similar.

The 1123cc version for me ran quite well. It ran around 9.75 and 136 mph,but this is also the max compression versions.

I could take the same size engine 10 to 1 vs 12 to 1 and it speeds the bike up .3 on the track.

Head work wise was the same for all my versions. Stock ports are so bad,mostly because of the casting residue,that one look and you do something with it. The little engines act different,the head flows enough to fill it,vs the large ones that run like a tractor. This gives a curve like you show that actually goes to a peak,the big engines plain run out of air,torque at revs drop off and with it the power. HP=T X rpm/5252,so high revs with less torque is same as torque and no revs.

It is absolutely amazing how many versions of these I made and power on the track ended up almost the same. The reason for the large high compression versions is it can pull the slick on the launch,even if the power drops off with revs.

I will also be amazed if the megaphone pipe does not run better than a canister and I don't care about the price or trendy name. I had both a Star pipe and a V+H on the bike at Atlanta on the dyno and the curves overlay almost identical. Now weather could have changed some before we got the pipe changed or the tie down on the dyno affected it some. To me it seems the Star pipe is better on the track,sounds better,but the dyno run said the same.

Now as for real power my RPO Denco full pyramid system was faster and the V& H sidewinder slowed it down some. This was a ground clearnace rules deal that forced me to use the sidewinder.

You can do what you want. One of my dragsters has around $10,000 in parts and this does not include the original price for the bike.

As I said you can flat throw money at one and some squid on a 600 will suck your eyes out. When Prostar ran the 600 class there were gobs of them running similar times. This is comparing a stock engine 600 on street tires foot shifted with no wheelie bar to a slick and bar 1200cc drag bike with an airshifter. Really disheartening.

Don't get me wrong,the 1100 is a nice bike to ride but trying to make one fast is a complete waste of money. Also speed wise the old Kawasaki 750 Turbo we have will flat just leave the 1100 from any speed in any gear,it looks like the road runner and coyote cartoon.

Considering the entire reason I started with this engine was to outrun the common Kaw and Suzuki. I used to be fast,say 10 flat but could not get it much faster where the old Kaws eventually ended up in the low 8 sec and the GS Suzuki a lot faster.
 
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larryg
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 3393
Location: western mass

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:11 pm Reply with quote Back to top

So Todd...when are we going to Lebanon? Very Happy Maybe I'll let Sammy ride my bike for a run or two, he has to be at 50 pounds lighter than me. Then we'll go heads up....for pinks! Razz Seriously the test and tune nights are pretty cheap and laid back with very few rules. You'll be lucky to get four runs in though. I dont mind beating on my bike for just a few runs. Cool
 
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toddk
CB1100F
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 2286
Location: Saratoga Springs, New York

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:11 pm Reply with quote Back to top

50 roflmao

Toddk
 
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DrOlds
Silver CB900F
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Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 1234
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:21 am Reply with quote Back to top

25 years ago when my 1100F was fairly new there was a local gas station owner who drag raced and had a barrel of Cam 2 / 110 octane race fuel he would sell for $ 3.30 per gallon. I would add about 1 gallon to the normal Mobil 93 octane he sold and it really woke up my bike (Yoshi pipe, pods and jetted carefully.) I always wondered what the power gain actually was any ideas? DrOlds
 
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CB1100F
SuperSport
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Joined: Jun 19, 2003
Posts: 16905
Location: Winchester Springs, TN

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:44 am Reply with quote Back to top

DrOlds wrote:
I always wondered what the power gain actually was any ideas? DrOlds


0hp. Octane is resistance to detonation. If you didn't make any other changes you were just wasting money.

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firemun59
Red CB1100F
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Joined: Sep 17, 2004
Posts: 4135
Location: Oshawa,Ontario,Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:35 am Reply with quote Back to top

Just to muddy the water and possibly clarify things - a topic we all throw around. Yes Bill 'sonicrete' we respect what you are saying about the downfall of these DOHC Honda's - but we seem to still love them none the less. Let say(on an 1100f) we use decent FCRs (35-39mm - or so), run stock 1100F cams ( sonicretes recomendation) degreed as per Bills suggestion, 1123 (10.25 comp) pistons, porting, a good pipe and dyna coils. at this level it sounds like 135hp is the number. That seems to be a soild consensus - what about the following - lighter, stronger rods ( is this reliability insurance only) and a lightened crank and balancing. Sonicrete what does it take to go beyond 135 hp (no we dont want to build a Z1) - is 140 possible - realistic? on a street motor using possibly better fuel. I would be interested to get a consensus - I dont care if some squid on a 600 can be faster........ Cool


P.S. - thanks for the DYNO sheet Larry.
 
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SSRob
MB-5
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Joined: Aug 14, 2007
Posts: 24
Location: Delray Beach, FL

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:55 am Reply with quote Back to top

I had the pleasure of riding Larrys 1123 and it is very choice indeed. Makes my 900 feel like a fat kids big wheel!!!
 
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bulldauq
Hawk
Hawk



Joined: Sep 16, 2005
Posts: 410
Location: Sikeston,Mo

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:30 am Reply with quote Back to top

Larry wrote:
I have 135 RWHP and the dyno runs to prove it. Street bike with CR carbs, properly degreed cams, 1123 kit, Dyna Ignition, Cobra SS Exhaust. A few F owners have ridden the bike at the Honda Hoot or when visiting down here in Florida and can attest to its power.




Yea I did . What he said very impressive power and lots of fun to ride. Thanks Larry.
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:56 am Reply with quote Back to top

Man alive I get to say the same damn thing again.

These bikes are octane limited,period. They will detonate/preignition and this restricts the power,period. Now maybe you are deaf or hard of hearing and cannot hear the detonation fire fight going on between you legs.

Now of course you are smarter than me and parrot the line that it does not help,never mind it does.

A 750 or 900 for that matter is so slow and has no compression so octane does not help. The 1100 has a lot larger piston diameter,this alone makes more "compression" because it is forcing more displacement into the combustion chamber,the flat area front and back on the head becomes nothing at RPM due to rod stretch,ie head gasket squish area.

Piston manufacturers make it dummy info. Flat top is "called" 8 to 1. Wiseco dome is called 10.25 to 1. Arais and others have an 11.5 to 1 dome. The max compression jobs come to a point and called 13.5 to 1. None of this changes because of the bore size,the dome is the same. So you think say 10.25 to 1 is the same compression at 1123cc(72mm) that it is as 1220cc(75mm) and Wiseco used to make 1220cc kits.

As for me my 1100 has been fuel sensitive since new it will rattle. A little cam-2 in with the pump 93 gives power where it would rattle before.

Now add some cam or better carbs and the cylinder is now full so there is something more to compress and detonation is more.

Also as I said it is not peak rpm where this is needed,but closer to 3000 rpm where full timing advance takes place. The combination of too high a gear and slowish speed combined with throttle and it will rattle like coffee can full of marbles. Give it octane and this rattle goes away rewarded with Harley type low RPM grunt.

It all revolves around the combustion chamber shape,it is not good,the flame front does not travel well. So the trade off is to advance the timing so it runs at revs but you cannot because it will rattle at 3000 rpm. The Dyna type ignition gives digital control over timing advance that the simple weights and springs simply does not do.
 
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firemun59
Red CB1100F
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Joined: Sep 17, 2004
Posts: 4135
Location: Oshawa,Ontario,Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:56 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Bill,

I was not being a 'parrot' as you stated - I was just summarizing. We understand completely regarding the limitation of power gains due to the octane levels available in pump gas. No one here is saying we are smarter than you either. We certainly all have our knowledge bases - although yours is certainly great in terms of the DOHC Honda's - and other things automotive. Lets see if I can restate and not 'parrot' what you are saying (yes again) - using the formula you and others have put together( as above in previous posts) the secret to a few more HP is compression and compatible fuel - along with what is already being done to reach the 130 mark. The main reason for this thread is to reasonably extract a few more HP out of this motor - If stock claimed levels were 108 and 'Larry' is clearly tapping at 130 on a dyno could you not tell us how to bump it 8-10 HP from the 130 level? It must be reasonable - or not? It looks like 'stoutblock' will go well beyond that. - we know it wont be a budget build either.

Bill - I believe that most people here regard you as a leading authority on these motors - is an 1123 capable of just under 140 hp on the street - please consider an excellent fuel source for a build like this.
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Larry is in FLORIDA correct?

The entire state is no higher than 200 feet above sea level.

The "parrot" comment was for CB1100F,since we have had this discussion before. My stock 1100 will not run without detonation and has run high test from new. 87 would be engine death,so maybe he rides like grandma and can use 89,mine is sensitive to various stations for the quality of the 93 and I know it is hard to find fresh 93.

You would think you would listen to me. THESE ENGINES ARE DOGS ON POWER. "Bunt" rode Jr Pro Stock when they were new,this is 750 displacement and ran in the 9.90 range with a light bike. I used 1187cc usually and finally made an 1123cc with less cam to slow the bike down to the 9.75 to 9.80 range. In real terms with me riding the same bike,same carbs,the quickest was 1187cc big cams,big compression,etc at 9.56 @141. The 1123cc no compression bike ran 10.0. The compression makes the bike launch where no compression will bog unless it is big enough.

In every other engine you make some change and get a gain,not these. You cannot rev them more than about 10,000 rpm and keep them together,I had aluminum rods spun the engine high,no gain. Accidental discovery was simple shifting at 10,000 vs 10,600 speeded it up. You cannot make displacement over max of 1200cc ish and infact cannot get pistons larger than 1123cc nowdays.

The largest disappointment is cams. Stock,not worn out 1100,is decent. #4 Andrews is .360" lift about stock 1100. Next step is .375" lift and can run shim on top. Going to .400" lift takes about $1000 for shim under buckets and the shims. In my case I always used the aluminum retainers heavy springs shim under on any of the cams so this is not a variable due to reciprocating weight. There used to be .400" lift Andrews you needed to cut the head for clearance "a lot". These look like the 1100 stock cam. I have a special Denco .400" lift set that has heavy math on the profiles to get area under the curve without the long duration,these work,but still not much gain. I have a special set of RSC Honda Racing Service Center cams with long duration and these babies Honda even called motor destroyers. The motor revs to high heaven but makes no power. The duration is too long and affects bottom power as well. It slowed down the 60 ft AND slowed down the trap speed.

I really cannot explain this different. I had MSD ignition and a shift light to shift at the correct RPM. Seat of the pants they rev up,sound mean but they make NO POWER up there. So someone who revs till they "peak out" results in motor in a box.

Money wise just ride the bike. Power wise buy a used Hayabusa. At least this is an up to date engine that someone actually makes hop up stuff for that does respond. Now most people would thing a 160+ Hp stock engine would be enough. I have seen these ridden in to the track and run 9.50 @150 with a streetbike take off and lazy 60ft,but by the 330 they were really moving. Cams,springs,buckets,shims is around a $2000 change in total and the stock 1100 is about the same.
 
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f4fast
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 24693
Location: Long Island,N.Y.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:38 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Idiom wrote:
can't see the forest for the trees


This is a vintage bike site. If these guys wanted a new bike they would buy one.

Vintage bike guys tend to like to fiddle with their bikes. That's the idea Bill

Get It?

Guys want a formula build up using some trick parts that they can use to "make their bikes their own"

Seems like some of the west coast dyno runs w/o degreed cams made around 95 -105 hp is the difference in power (to larry's 125) attention to detail or elevation?

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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The problem I see is most people want something for nothing. Absolutely pouring sand ($$$) down a rat hole for no gain. I spent/wasted plain a gob of money. In hop up parts alone on one bike I totalled up around $10,000. This is say 1990 dollars and by 1999 it would buy a brand new bike making around 170 HP mufflers electric start with a warranty.

These dynos available are not true. They use a computer to measure the rate of change of drum rpm(road speed) of the heavy drum. For this reason simply installing lighter wheels will make it show higher HP because the drum spools quicker. Big hint here the wheels do not "make" more power. It is real world "faster" though similar to making more power.

So besides the altitude change it can also be simply incorrect programming in the computer. I say incorrect as a side note because all of them are incorrect. They "fudged" the programming originally because the HP numbers came out too low to sell the machines. This was written in articals when these kind first came out. So they adjusted the programming so the numbers came out closer to what the customer of the "dyno charge" was expecting.

According to the horsepower estimater on amadragbike my dead stock 1100 would run 115 -117 mph and this crosses to around 90 HP at the wheel. If Honda was true at 108 HP rated this would be believable with the drive line losses.

Also what this means is I built all kind of displacements and they all ran the same on the track. A 750 short stroke revs higher. Building to larger bores just equalizes,ie 70mm bore goes the same speed,the tach reads higher 62mm to 69mm. In the case of "bunt" his 750 Jr ProStock really revved,BUT speed/ET and with this HP all comes out the same.

Now a big engine runs better at lowish RPM,but top end wise no difference.

You had to experience changing all kind of things to gain ZIP. Seeing parts from other brands Kaw/Suzuki,etc that made 200HP+ mine made 150HP. Needless to say I was disappointed. It was however "fast for a Honda" back then.

Nowdays there are gobs of bikes even down to 600's that plain outperform these on power and handle better as well.

I have said this multiple times,just ride the bike for what it is. You can change headers for the sound,but leave the CV's and stock airbox alone. The throttle response,the choke and the rest is a "cleaner" installation since it was stock. There is clearance problems from the petcock for certain carbs and other things that is not there on a dedicated race bike.

The stock 1100,but better if it is built with a 900 crank,at 1063cc or 1123cc works much nicer than the smaller engines. The 750 and 900 piston is so small it restricts what little flow the head does do but at 70mm and above is what this motor should be. This is when going larger piston does not gain much more. You gain "a little" but no big gains and spend a bunch of money.
 
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blitzkraig
Twinstar
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Joined: Oct 25, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Flint Hills, Kansas

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Wow! I had no idea!

I guess I'm glad that I modified my bikes long before I found out it would be useless to do so.

I might've left them stock and probably would've traded them for something I didn't enjoy tuning, improving, and making it better than everyone else's...making it mine.

I may have even given up my hobby and profession altogether.

YIKES! Shocked
 
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dyrrtmann
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:00 am Reply with quote Back to top

Sonic, I'm sure you'll correct me if I get it wrong, but what you're saying (not the first time - I know) is that you can only go so far with the Honda motors because of 1) limited ability to increase displacement (little to no extra "meat" in the cylinder barrel) and 2) lousy head/combustion chamber design - there's not much room to make improvements (not enough area to open up or reconfigure the combustion chamber to alter burn characteristics, not enough room to go with more radical cams w/o encountering engine destroying valve timing overlap and piston travel, along with a badly designed intake tract that really can't be fixed).

There was a discussion months ago over swapping cams - what it came down to is "breathing"- engines need to be able to move larger amounts of air to make "bigger" power. The Honda head design is extremely limited in that respect.

Apparently, approx. 130HP is the "ceiling" with this motor and what is currently available.

If you want to go further, you need a custom designed/built cylinder barrel and head to do that - makes what guys like genesound and stoutblock have spent on their motors look like spare change.

Or you can buy a different bike. Does that about cover it??
 
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WisconsinF
Black CB750F
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:50 am Reply with quote Back to top

To confirm Sonics above statement....

Recently I dyno'd 89.8 horse power at 8800rpm on a dead stock 1100 with new valves and a paper air filter.
 
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firemun59
Red CB1100F
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Joined: Sep 17, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:27 am Reply with quote Back to top

call me an idiot - but I plan on pouring money down a hole............carbs,porting....you know the rest - aiming for more than stock.
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
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Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:36 am Reply with quote Back to top

You need a "squish" area to stir up the combustion,but the chamber shape that fits 1100 bore unrestricts the valves,trade off.

If you use a stock 900 head on 1100 or larger bore it does not breathe. The combustion chamber shape restricts air flow,so it works better to be 1100 shape. First of my improvemnts since I had 1187cc engine before the 1100 bike ever came out. It became,this combustion chamber is shit and cut it to what I thought it should be. This picked up about 3 to 4 mph trap speed even though it made cranking compression lower. When 1100 dome pistons came out this brought the compression back up and gained a little more.

The FJ-1100/1200 Yamaha is similar to these as to valve angles and shape. Byron Hines made a Pro Stock version of this motor and modified the head to install THREE spark plugs per chamber. The entire fairing was full of coils. This was done so the timing could be retarded some to believable numbers and get the combustion speed needed without detonation. It only went like 7.70's even with copious Yamaha money and was not competitive with GS 1100/1150 Suzuki.

Basically the newer bikes have a chamber shape that is all squish with a flat chamber shape,so all the fire is concentrated at the plug.

Now I believe the port angle also resticts the air flow at high flow rate/speed/displacement. This means the cylinder may be full at say 6000 rpm but is not anywhere near full at say 9000 rpm. It needs the timing with one plug because it is not full. If it was full and big dome/compression it would detonate here as well. Too much timing starts the burn early and attempts to turn the engine backwards,but the event is so slow to involve,no top end power. This was the reason Byron used all those plugs to cover the poor design.

The Yamaha has more cylinder spacing so has room for the plugs this Honda does not have.

John Sands nitro Honda covered this problem by drilling the head for injectors from the spark plug galley down into the valve(s) bowl. This bike would actually shake the ground with the sound of the high nitro percentage. It went from 7.70's 175 to 7.10's 195. So you have an injected nitro engine that would not qualify in Pro Stock and really slow compared to the Funny Bikes it raced against.

All of this is why the Honda and Yamaha are not power producers but at least the Yamaha could be made big. All of this is what led modern motors to the flat combustion chamber,it unrestricts the valve air flow into the chamber AND still has big compression. It was basically the Suzuki chamber improved over time.

When these bikes were new you could buy parts. Several companies made pistons,even Wiseco,at 1220cc. Now there are no forgings to even pay for specials. LA sleeve does not make the big sleeve any more. So no 1187cc + size motors. No cams except weld regrind and big $$$.

Where we think 1123cc is a big engine it is a baby size.Even first gen GSXR can be made bigger and are this big to start with.

It just seems a lose lose situation. The really bad thing is detonation rears its ugly head everytime you try to get power out of these. Drag racing on Cam-2 leaded racing gasoline is one thing and complete another when you need to stop at "Happy Jacks" budget gas because you are out on a long street ride.

In real terms the stock 1100 does run decent. It is a nice looking bike. Rocket ship wise though just costs money and really does not speed it up much for all the problems this creates.

Another way to say this is I have a dead stock 1100 I bought new. I have all kind of parts to make it faster but it is not worth pulling the motor to do the work. Now if it broke I would improve it some,probably port the head,because the ports are so bad. The epoxy black paint in the ports really covers a lot of casting crap and also really loads up the cutters trying to do the work.
 
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dyrrtmann
Hawk
Hawk



Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 323
Location: Oakland, Calif. U.S.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

firemun59 wrote:
call me an idiot - but I plan on pouring money down a hole............carbs,porting....you know the rest - aiming for more than stock.


Me too. I'm still way under what I would have spent for a single used current model (and that's gotten me a great running 1100, a great running 750, and enough parts to put 2 900's together). I'm also a lot happier. Very Happy
 
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firemun59
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Sep 17, 2004
Posts: 4135
Location: Oshawa,Ontario,Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:01 am Reply with quote Back to top

I asked Bill - aka sonicrete to run a little engine seminar in the fall - anyone interested in being involved in a trek to see the grand wizard.....easy Bill just kidding here....dates in the works - perhaps september or october....he still has to agree - just asking to see who is interested.
 
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sonicrete
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 15486
Location: Lancaster,Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:08 am Reply with quote Back to top

I live here,so anyone that wants to come is welcome. I can show you all kind of examples.
 
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